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<blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 8444980" data-attributes="member: 7023840">For every Velvet Underground (&quot;The first Velvet Underground album only sold 10000 copies, but everyone who bought it formed a band.&quot; - Brian Eno), there are untold tens of thousands of avant garde music ensembles that disappear, never to be heard from again.It is not enough to simply assert you are avant garde; otherwise, we would all be like Brad because he wore all black in 8th grade. Don't be like Brad.The issues of TTRPGs as a creative endeavor are different than most of the other examples we have. It neither sufficient nor necessary to just assert it is creative, therefore amenable to certain theory. Primarily because it is not like other &quot;art.&quot;It is not paintings. Or literature. Or movies. Because it is not a completed work meant to be consumed.It is not just a set of rules meant to be designed, either.Nor is it simply acting from a script, or improv.Finally, it isn't just creative storytelling or world building.The very nature of it (from the rules and design creation to the player-player interaction to the division of authority w/r/t rules to the varying degrees to which table might desire to &quot;act out&quot; or &quot;role play&quot;) is so varied that easy categorization does not apply, and the type of analysis that might be very appealing to one set of consumer/players will be alienating to another.IMO, YMMV, etc.EDIT- to return the subject I mentioned in the OP, what was shocking is how un-avant garde most TTRPG theory is. This was all done and discussed in the 70s and early 80s. It's just a constant re-inventing of the wheel.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Snarf Zagyg, post: 8444980, member: 7023840"] For every Velvet Underground ("The first Velvet Underground album only sold 10000 copies, but everyone who bought it formed a band." - Brian Eno), there are untold tens of thousands of avant garde music ensembles that disappear, never to be heard from again. It is not enough to simply assert you are avant garde; otherwise, we would all be like Brad because he wore all black in 8th grade. Don't be like Brad. The issues of TTRPGs as a creative endeavor are different than most of the other examples we have. It neither sufficient nor necessary to just assert it is creative, therefore amenable to certain theory. Primarily because it is not like other "art." It is not paintings. Or literature. Or movies. Because it is not a completed work meant to be consumed. It is not just a set of rules meant to be designed, either. Nor is it simply acting from a script, or improv. Finally, it isn't just creative storytelling or world building. The very nature of it (from the rules and design creation to the player-player interaction to the division of authority w/r/t rules to the varying degrees to which table might desire to "act out" or "role play") is so varied that easy categorization does not apply, and the type of analysis that might be very appealing to one set of consumer/players will be alienating to another. IMO, YMMV, etc. EDIT- to return the subject I mentioned in the OP, what was shocking is how un-avant garde most TTRPG theory is. This was all done and discussed in the 70s and early 80s. It's just a constant re-inventing of the wheel. [/QUOTE]

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