Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 8446269" data-attributes="member: 5142">This feels a bit like an earlier comment (maybe either [USER=7032863]@gorice[/USER] or [USER=7028554]@Grendel_Khan[/USER]) that talked about the veiled issue of how one is only permitted to talk about D&D or 5e in terms that showers praise on it while exclaiming it better than the rest. IMHO, it seems that anyone who needs their 800 pound market gorilla praised in that fashion - no matter what market or product we are talking about - has no genuine intention of engaging in TTRPG criticism or theory, but, rather, are fishing for reassurance for a fragile ego that their gamer identity is the best, usually on an ad populum basis.I understand that Coca-Cola is a market leader in drinks and I understand why it is popular, but that doesn't mean that I will or should recommend it for everyone or in all occasions. For example, I probably won't recommend it to someone before they run a marathon.Or likewise: 'MERICA! (Truck yeah!) The USA is the greatest country ever. Praise be the Flag of Flags. America can do no wrong. America is mother. America is father. American exceptionalism is the most exceptional! And so on. But it never ceases to amaze me how many Americans I have encountered either here or elsewhere who have little to no grasp (almost to the point of being offended) of the idea that other fully functioning non-American democracies aren't designed just like America is. The idea, for example, that the citizens of other countries have greater liberties or freedoms in some aspects than Americans is so anethema to American thinking and self-identity. It is so offensive to some Americans that America is not the best at everything. How could this be possible? They are the land of the free. They personally invented democracy in 1776. They have a Constitution with a Bill of Rights. How could other citizens possibly have more freedoms in not-America? (It's okay, I can say all of this as an American citizen, with special cred as a Southerner from Appalachia with both sides of my family living in America for 250+ years.)That said, I sometimes encounter these sort nationalistic undertones with people (not the people currently talking, who are all smart, wise, and drink excellent Scotch I am sure) so invested in D&D as their game of choice. (It's a bit trite, but I'll point out that these undertones can certainly exist in non-D&D game communities too - I did mention the Cypher System and Fate has also been brought up before - but D&D is the 'Merica! of game systems.) I wish I could talk about other countries or games plainly without having to constantly jump through hoops to appease these fragile nationalist/factionalist egos.I also don't think that most people who bring indie games up in discussion are trying to turn D&D into these indie games. These are people who often still play D&D 5e as D&D 5e or D&D-adjacent games in their own fashion (e.g., Pathfinder 2, Worlds Without Number, Black Hack, OSR Retroclones, etc.). In my observation, it has primarily been about showing that alternatives exist to how D&D or 5e does things, that differences exist in other games, playstyles, and/or approaches. It's not that D&D has to be like Burning Wheel, but, rather, it's to show that games like Burning Wheel exist with different game philosophies and approaches, particularly when it comes to GM/player authority dynamics.Similarly, I don't think that the question of "why D&D could never embrace some of the innovations we see in indie games" is particularly interesting, because (1) the enduring popularity of the elephant in the room has already been widely discussed for decades, (2) I think that the reasons are fairly obvious at this point, which was only reinforced by 5e's success, so I'm not sure what that discussion hopes to achieve apart from inundating D&D (but really the exceptional people who chose D&D as their game of choice) with affirmative praise, and (3) I'm not necessarily wanting D&D to be more like "bespoke indie games." That I think that 5e D&D's design could be improved upon or tightened up should not be regarded as being synonymous with "D&D should be like indie games." Sometimes it means "hey, maybe 5e should have a more robust exploration pillar and play loop like D&D B/X did or Adventures in Middle Earth 5e does." Sometimes it means "hey, I think that D&D threw out some of its own greatest in-house design innovations and lore with the bath water as a result of the D&D 4e backlash."Usually, if I point out alternative ways to what D&D does that D&D actually could incorporate, it's with other games that are more adjacent to D&D's own design philosophies and system architecture, often with heavily D&D-experienced writers (e.g., Shadow of the Demon Lord by Rob Schwalb, 13th Age by Heinsoo and Tweet, Pathfinder 2 by Paizo, Cypher System by Monte Cook, etc.) or even in 5e 3pp (e.g., Adventures in Middle Earth).</blockquote>

Verification