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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8455510" data-attributes="member: 82106">But can you ever really get good results? I don't think so, personally. I mean, I've PLAYED in 5e campaigns twice that were run by a GM who is fully versed in and capable of running story games. It STILL wasn't much of a story game. Nobody knows what their character can DO, that's the main problem. I have stats, but they are essentially just hints. Even if the GM is operating in totally good faith, I still don't know how situations could play out, and there's no driving principles or deep nested 'onion structure' of process and principles such as exists in a PbtA-based game.WORSE there's no real process, outside of the most basic elements of combat, so I don't know what the VALUE of any action is. I can say I want to do X but I have only my notion of what the unrevealed story might be and what the GM's judgment of how to deploy checks is to gauge the impact of my character's actions. I mean, there's genre logic, right? But in the D&amp;D milieu that seems pretty weak, unless its a pretty cut-and-dried situation. Ironically 5e doesn't even cater to those (IE dungeon crawling exploration stuff) very well!I mean, a lot of the time it kind of worked, but things kind of 'derailed' quite often. Then we would have to go back out of character and negotiate what everyone meant and how their intentions mapped onto what was happening in a very explicit way. And then something like the pressures on the GM to manage situations to make the resource game work out come along and meh, it isn't that pretty.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8455510, member: 82106"] But can you ever really get good results? I don't think so, personally. I mean, I've PLAYED in 5e campaigns twice that were run by a GM who is fully versed in and capable of running story games. It STILL wasn't much of a story game. Nobody knows what their character can DO, that's the main problem. I have stats, but they are essentially just hints. Even if the GM is operating in totally good faith, I still don't know how situations could play out, and there's no driving principles or deep nested 'onion structure' of process and principles such as exists in a PbtA-based game. WORSE there's no real process, outside of the most basic elements of combat, so I don't know what the VALUE of any action is. I can say I want to do X but I have only my notion of what the unrevealed story might be and what the GM's judgment of how to deploy checks is to gauge the impact of my character's actions. I mean, there's genre logic, right? But in the D&D milieu that seems pretty weak, unless its a pretty cut-and-dried situation. Ironically 5e doesn't even cater to those (IE dungeon crawling exploration stuff) very well! I mean, a lot of the time it kind of worked, but things kind of 'derailed' quite often. Then we would have to go back out of character and negotiate what everyone meant and how their intentions mapped onto what was happening in a very explicit way. And then something like the pressures on the GM to manage situations to make the resource game work out come along and meh, it isn't that pretty. [/QUOTE]

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