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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 9217690" data-attributes="member: 6795602">First, thank you very much for breaking it down this way!  It really cuts to the chase for me!I'd dispute (i).  See below for the details.In addition - assuming (i) is correct, i might take issue with (iv).  Even if the DM and player both propose various conceptions of the fiction, and even if mechanics resolve which proposal takes place, there is no easing or constraining negotiation by mechanics as the very act of having agreed upon mechanics to determine which fictional proposal to accept circumvents the need for any negotiation now.  Easing is not circumventing.  If any negotiation happened here, it happened up front when the initial agreement was made.  The rest was simply adhering to that agreement.But what if that's not the player's desire - What if the player just desires to go through the agreed upon game process to see if that process allows him to place his PC on top of the wall?  Would this really be a proposal for a conception of the fiction?  I don't think so.I agree!  But since in D&D (and many other games) the GM has control over the world and NPC's, the GM in those games just needs to ensure the player understands his conception of the fiction as it pertains to those elements.Not if the player actually intended what I first mentioned - because that player didn't have a competing conception of the fiction - he just wanted to go through the game processes to see if his PC gets to be on top of the wall.  He never was saying my conception of the fiction is my pc is now on top of the wall.This presupposes that 1) that there is some negotiation (your definition in this post) that needs eased and constrained - something that is already in dispute and 2) that mechanics are for easing and constraining that negotiation, when the purpose of mechanics is either to eliminate the need for negotiation or they can define a process to negotiate - but most don't do the later.</blockquote>

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