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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 9223952" data-attributes="member: 6696971">I don't have time to get to everything in this post nor [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER] and [USER=7025508]@Crimson Longinus[/USER] ' posts.  I'm about to head out for most of the evening and then I'm running The Between when I get home so I'm going to be time-crunched to re-involve myself.  I'll do my best to read FR's, CL's posts and respond tomorrow and respond to the rest of this post.However, I do want to insert one very important piece of information what engages with the bolded above.When it comes to me personally, none of my gaming nor ideas about gaming comports with your ideas of received norms.  No pedagogy formal or informal, no received wisdom, no cultural assimilation, no peddled influence over me, no received norms.  I was a boy of 7 who was totally self-taught on D&D.  I was never apprenticed to a GM nor played under one (though I did watch many GMs games in order to understand what people were doing in the wild; often this was about the rejection of what I saw being done...sometimes it was ambivalence...sometimes it was mere curiosity at why my games were being accused of "roll-playing not role-playing" by particular GMs) nor went to Cons or any of it.The same thing goes for every TTRPG space I've been involved with.  Some ideas I think are excellent.  Some (like Edwards' original conception on incoherency which I believe he's moved off of a bit and is more amenable to the idea of Gamism and Narrativism being able to functionally integrate like in Torchbearer, Blades in the Dark, and D&D 4e) have enough countervailing evidence that I've never been fully onboard (case-by-case, yes).  So I didn't look at 4e through the lens of "received norms."  Many of the thoughts I had about a conceptual 4e were formed deep in my past (early to mid 90s); long before The Forge, Burning Wheel, Dogs in the Vineyard (etc) and the actual D&D ruleset that emerged in 2008.  Perhaps others looked at it in terms of "received norms."  I did not.  I don't look at any game I play through "received norms."  My viewing field is very specific to each game I read and run (or choose not to run); "what is it trying to do", "how well does it do it", "do I even like the what or the how"?   "Received norms" don't weigh into it.  Games are neither cultural artifacts nor cultural cache nor cultural identity to me.  My engagement with them (or my opt-out) is strictly "do the thing and then we're done with each other."Sometimes, independent verification (particularly at scale and across time and space with little to no opportunity for touchpoints) is signal of an actual, undergirding phenomenon.</blockquote>

Verification