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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 9230067" data-attributes="member: 6696971">The question becomes:&quot;What work is the goal doing in play?&quot;&nbsp; Specifically, how does the goal interact with (a) GM situation-framing, (b) player's decision-space and orientation to/coordination of their prospective lines of play (c) GM's job in building out a constellation of outcomes and fallout (both gamestate and attendant evolution of the imagined space), (d) GM's negotiating/winnowing that constellation of outcomes and telegraphing consequences to the player, (e) player declaring action, (f) and all of this getting filtered through system (procedures, GMing principles and techniques, widgets and various tech/ephemera).For instance, action declarations around &quot;consulting your accumulated knowledge&quot; in 3.x D&amp;D (Knowledge Skill Check) vs in Dungeon World (Spout Lore) are extremely different in all of ways (a) through (f) above. On a miss in 3.x, the result is:[ATTACH=full]341999[/ATTACH]In other words, &quot;a dead end.&quot;On a miss in DW, the result is that the GM makes a move as hard as they like and the player marks xp.&nbsp; Making a move as hard as you like on a Spout Lore miss in DW should always be:* Here is something interesting about your stipulation of thing x when you &quot;consult your accumulated knowledge&quot; (the 7-9 result)...but here is how its complicated/makes your life difficult...and that may be &quot;if you pursue it&quot; (in that game's parlance a Discovery + a Danger) or it may be you pointing at a Danger that is now looming and activated after this Discovery; a knowledge Sword of Damocles.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 9230067, member: 6696971"] The question becomes: "What work is the goal doing in play?" Specifically, how does the goal interact with (a) GM situation-framing, (b) player's decision-space and orientation to/coordination of their prospective lines of play (c) GM's job in building out a constellation of outcomes and fallout (both gamestate and attendant evolution of the imagined space), (d) GM's negotiating/winnowing that constellation of outcomes and telegraphing consequences to the player, (e) player declaring action, (f) and all of this getting filtered through system (procedures, GMing principles and techniques, widgets and various tech/ephemera). For instance, action declarations around "consulting your accumulated knowledge" in 3.x D&D (Knowledge Skill Check) vs in Dungeon World (Spout Lore) are extremely different in all of ways (a) through (f) above. On a miss in 3.x, the result is: [ATTACH type="full" alt="1703798432045.png"]341999[/ATTACH] In other words, "a dead end." On a miss in DW, the result is that the GM makes a move as hard as they like and the player marks xp. Making a move as hard as you like on a Spout Lore miss in DW should always be: * Here is something interesting about your stipulation of thing x when you "consult your accumulated knowledge" (the 7-9 result)...but here is how its complicated/makes your life difficult...and that may be "if you pursue it" (in that game's parlance a Discovery + a Danger) or it may be you pointing at a Danger that is now looming and activated after this Discovery; a knowledge Sword of Damocles. [/QUOTE]

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