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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9235144" data-attributes="member: 71699">So I've described the &quot;job to be done&quot; as &quot;counting individual acts toward resolution of an arc&quot; and &quot;ways to say when enough has been done toward a goal.&quot; I might be misreading your post to have a tone of disagreement: if that is on the matter of scale, I would argue that the fundamental job done, and consequential distinctions between members of this family of mechanics, don't turn on that.The 4e DMG2 has the most to say on the scale and breadth of skill challenges. &quot;You can even use a structure challenge as the framework for a whole section of an adventure, or even the entire adventure.&quot; The &quot;War By Other Means&quot; case study &quot;represents the player characters’ efforts to oversee and perhaps influence the negotiations as they try to keep matters from devolving into violence.&quot;But compare with the looser structure of momentum points in L5R, which counts only successes. Also counting failures as 4e does has consequences for play.You mention tactical and operational concerns, and strategic... a wide range. As examples, Long-Term Project and Faction clocks can span sessions.I would differentiate BitD clocks from momentum points and SCs on the basis that normally only player characters can earn momentum points or SC successes/fails, but BitD clocks are generally driven by other things. In terms of structure and potential, though, they're part of the same family of mechanics.Good point. The way dangers trigger grim portents that herald the impending doom is a kind of clock. They're looser than the other examples I chose, and while player characters will no doubt form goals relating to them and ultimately drive them, to my mind they stand as an outlier. Still, they do exemplify the general job to do - when has the badness gone far enough to trigger the end?Momentum mechanics speak to a contract between participants as to what equals enough. When have we done enough to navigate through the Forest of Neverlight? When have we done enough to find the Mastermind, persuade the Duke, and so on. They constrain and compel... in partricular constraining and compelling GM. Desiring to do that is one sign of a neo-trad design: it's not just - no rule zero - it's here's&nbsp; some boilerplate for your negotiations.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 9235144, member: 71699"] So I've described the "job to be done" as "counting individual acts toward resolution of an arc" and "ways to say when enough has been done toward a goal." I might be misreading your post to have a tone of disagreement: if that is on the matter of scale, I would argue that the fundamental job done, and consequential distinctions between members of this family of mechanics, don't turn on that. The 4e DMG2 has the most to say on the scale and breadth of skill challenges. "You can even use a structure challenge as the framework for a whole section of an adventure, or even the entire adventure." The "War By Other Means" case study "represents the player characters’ efforts to oversee and perhaps influence the negotiations as they try to keep matters from devolving into violence." But compare with the looser structure of momentum points in L5R, which counts only successes. Also counting failures as 4e does has consequences for play. You mention tactical and operational concerns, and strategic... a wide range. As examples, Long-Term Project and Faction clocks can span sessions. I would differentiate BitD clocks from momentum points and SCs on the basis that normally only player characters can earn momentum points or SC successes/fails, but BitD clocks are generally driven by other things. In terms of structure and potential, though, they're part of the same family of mechanics. Good point. The way dangers trigger grim portents that herald the impending doom is a kind of clock. They're looser than the other examples I chose, and while player characters will no doubt form goals relating to them and ultimately drive them, to my mind they stand as an outlier. Still, they do exemplify the general job to do - when has the badness gone far enough to trigger the end? Momentum mechanics speak to a contract between participants as to what equals enough. When have we done enough to navigate through the Forest of Neverlight? When have we done enough to find the Mastermind, persuade the Duke, and so on. They constrain and compel... in partricular constraining and compelling GM. Desiring to do that is one sign of a neo-trad design: it's not just - no rule zero - it's here's some boilerplate for your negotiations. [/QUOTE]

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