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RPGs And Eurostyle Games: When Opposites Attract
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<blockquote data-quote="aramis erak" data-source="post: 7749578" data-attributes="member: 6779310"><p>Part of the problem is defining "Major RPG's"</p><p></p><p>By sales, if you go Top Magnitude (as in powers of 10), D&D is it. Period. More players at any given time than the next 3-4 combined, and often more than the next 10 combined.</p><p></p><p>Pathfinder may be as much as 20% of the number of 5E in terms of players, but it's been hinted it's more like 10% on sales. I'd seldom argue against it being major.</p><p></p><p>Fate Core is well known, but not nearly as well bought/played. But I think it counts as major, due to notoriety alone. Same for Apocalypse World.</p><p></p><p>FFG Star Wars and WEG Star Wars, for their times, absolutely in the major category, even if only 1/20 the sales of D&D - name recognition, even if "Oh, yeah, the star wars with the funky dice" for FFG-SW.</p><p></p><p>Warhammer is less spectacular sales-wise, but well known. I think it should be considered major, but many don't.</p><p></p><p>Das Schwarze Auge also should count as major - it was the best selling RPG in Germany (and several other German speaking areas) for decades.</p><p></p><p>Traveller has sold about a million total core units since 1977... by 2000, Classic had sold over 200k alone before the late 90's reprints, and was nearly half-a-million overall. The sales, counting MGT, have recently brought the number up rapidly for total system, as has PDF sales of every edition on CD or Thumb Drive. Note that Marc considers Cepheus Engine to be "a part of the Traveller family" and he and I agreed it should be supported actively at TravellerRPG.com. (I'm the lead admin there.) Most older gamers have heard of Traveller. I think it's pretty major.</p><p></p><p>Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest and Basic Role Play probably should combined count as Major - they're all the same engine. And RQ was 1978, BRP was out by 1982, so some flavor of the engine has been in print continuously since 1978. It's well known, too.</p><p></p><p>GURPS and Hero System both should count as major - most decent game stores carry one or the other, if not both.</p><p></p><p>Gumshoe has a lot of recognition. Lot less sales and plays, but it's talked about well out of proportion to sales. </p><p></p><p><strong>Fundamentally, the euro-like RPG's aren't even in the second magnitude of sales nor plays. </strong>Even tho' I like several of them, they just aren't going to catch up with D&D any time soon. Let alone D&D+Pathfinder+Starfinder+StarWars+StarTrek.</p><p></p><p>I do think Modiphius' Star Trek and Conan and Burning Wheel's games (BWG, Burning Empires, Mouse Guard, Torchbearer), plus Fate and Cortex Plus, all feel to traditional RPGs much as euro-styled consims (Vinci, Small World, BattleLore, Memoir 44) compared the combination range of "Ameritrash" consims (Axis and Allies, Samurai Swords, BattleLore, Memoir 44, C&C Ancients), (Hex/Square/Space)-n-counter single-box wargames (Johnny Reb, 1776, Invasion Earth, 5th Frontier War, Imperium, Succession Wars, NATO)... the theme is pasted on, but seems to work well enough.</p><p></p><p>Now, I find Star Trek Adventures does NOT help me make a Star Trek feel by the rules mechanics themselves - they're much too light to do genre enforcement. They don't get in my way, either - if everyone agrees on what "Star Trek" should feel like, and sticks within, it works really well. If they don't, it can hurt the experience badly. FASA-Trek, by comparison, had TOS Genre enforcement in the Character Generation, in the ship combat systems (both STRPG 1E core's, and ST III boardgame tie-in), and in the extensive gear lists. What it didn't do well is capture the rapid flowing feel of TOS brawls. STA can do those brawls, and the TNG "snapshots across the room from cover," and the TOS:A Piece of the Action thompson submachinegun drive by... but unlike FASA, if allowed to drop down to just rules, without the colorful flourishes, there's no ST feel left, in the same way that Puerto Rico, St Petersburg, King Me!, Colosseum, ticket to ride, or Reiner Knizia's Knights are respectively math/economy engine, ibid, hidden agenda bidding, Asset auction and set completion, rummy variant with a bizarre scoring system, yachtzee variant with a bizarre scoring system. Conan, Mutant Chronicles 3rd, and Star Trek all use one engine, with light mechanical theme changes, and heavy use of fluff text to define the intended genre.</p><p></p><p> [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] - Most boardgames have a shared emergent story - it's just not a character driven one. Listen to the Power Grid or Advanced Civ "No S__t, there I was..." stories. Or any consim. Or even Settlers of Catan. Players will see story in their play almost any time they can "empathize with the pieces"... Twilight Imperium players especially, speak of their factions in a personified way, as to Advanced Civ players; Diplomacy players tend to see their opponents as the story element, but still, it forms a narrative that, when exceptional, becomes a legend amongst the players (and the bane of us waiting in line at the FLGS register).</p><p></p><p>Making stories is one thing that humans are genetically adept at doing - EVERY culture has the ability to tell stories (with the possible exception of the dozen or so uncontacted known tribes), and to relate the actions of others, including fictional others.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="aramis erak, post: 7749578, member: 6779310"] Part of the problem is defining "Major RPG's" By sales, if you go Top Magnitude (as in powers of 10), D&D is it. Period. More players at any given time than the next 3-4 combined, and often more than the next 10 combined. Pathfinder may be as much as 20% of the number of 5E in terms of players, but it's been hinted it's more like 10% on sales. I'd seldom argue against it being major. Fate Core is well known, but not nearly as well bought/played. But I think it counts as major, due to notoriety alone. Same for Apocalypse World. FFG Star Wars and WEG Star Wars, for their times, absolutely in the major category, even if only 1/20 the sales of D&D - name recognition, even if "Oh, yeah, the star wars with the funky dice" for FFG-SW. Warhammer is less spectacular sales-wise, but well known. I think it should be considered major, but many don't. Das Schwarze Auge also should count as major - it was the best selling RPG in Germany (and several other German speaking areas) for decades. Traveller has sold about a million total core units since 1977... by 2000, Classic had sold over 200k alone before the late 90's reprints, and was nearly half-a-million overall. The sales, counting MGT, have recently brought the number up rapidly for total system, as has PDF sales of every edition on CD or Thumb Drive. Note that Marc considers Cepheus Engine to be "a part of the Traveller family" and he and I agreed it should be supported actively at TravellerRPG.com. (I'm the lead admin there.) Most older gamers have heard of Traveller. I think it's pretty major. Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest and Basic Role Play probably should combined count as Major - they're all the same engine. And RQ was 1978, BRP was out by 1982, so some flavor of the engine has been in print continuously since 1978. It's well known, too. GURPS and Hero System both should count as major - most decent game stores carry one or the other, if not both. Gumshoe has a lot of recognition. Lot less sales and plays, but it's talked about well out of proportion to sales. [B]Fundamentally, the euro-like RPG's aren't even in the second magnitude of sales nor plays. [/B]Even tho' I like several of them, they just aren't going to catch up with D&D any time soon. Let alone D&D+Pathfinder+Starfinder+StarWars+StarTrek. I do think Modiphius' Star Trek and Conan and Burning Wheel's games (BWG, Burning Empires, Mouse Guard, Torchbearer), plus Fate and Cortex Plus, all feel to traditional RPGs much as euro-styled consims (Vinci, Small World, BattleLore, Memoir 44) compared the combination range of "Ameritrash" consims (Axis and Allies, Samurai Swords, BattleLore, Memoir 44, C&C Ancients), (Hex/Square/Space)-n-counter single-box wargames (Johnny Reb, 1776, Invasion Earth, 5th Frontier War, Imperium, Succession Wars, NATO)... the theme is pasted on, but seems to work well enough. Now, I find Star Trek Adventures does NOT help me make a Star Trek feel by the rules mechanics themselves - they're much too light to do genre enforcement. They don't get in my way, either - if everyone agrees on what "Star Trek" should feel like, and sticks within, it works really well. If they don't, it can hurt the experience badly. FASA-Trek, by comparison, had TOS Genre enforcement in the Character Generation, in the ship combat systems (both STRPG 1E core's, and ST III boardgame tie-in), and in the extensive gear lists. What it didn't do well is capture the rapid flowing feel of TOS brawls. STA can do those brawls, and the TNG "snapshots across the room from cover," and the TOS:A Piece of the Action thompson submachinegun drive by... but unlike FASA, if allowed to drop down to just rules, without the colorful flourishes, there's no ST feel left, in the same way that Puerto Rico, St Petersburg, King Me!, Colosseum, ticket to ride, or Reiner Knizia's Knights are respectively math/economy engine, ibid, hidden agenda bidding, Asset auction and set completion, rummy variant with a bizarre scoring system, yachtzee variant with a bizarre scoring system. Conan, Mutant Chronicles 3rd, and Star Trek all use one engine, with light mechanical theme changes, and heavy use of fluff text to define the intended genre. [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] - Most boardgames have a shared emergent story - it's just not a character driven one. Listen to the Power Grid or Advanced Civ "No S__t, there I was..." stories. Or any consim. Or even Settlers of Catan. Players will see story in their play almost any time they can "empathize with the pieces"... Twilight Imperium players especially, speak of their factions in a personified way, as to Advanced Civ players; Diplomacy players tend to see their opponents as the story element, but still, it forms a narrative that, when exceptional, becomes a legend amongst the players (and the bane of us waiting in line at the FLGS register). Making stories is one thing that humans are genetically adept at doing - EVERY culture has the ability to tell stories (with the possible exception of the dozen or so uncontacted known tribes), and to relate the actions of others, including fictional others. [/QUOTE]
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