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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5180798" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I prefer a slightly broader definition of illusionism. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>If you read the essay The Shaman linked to, you'll find my examples were a bit more broad than his. He attempted to limit illusionism solely to my example #1. That's fine, and if you want to stick to it, I'm not going to quibble over terminology - I'll invent the broader term. Rather than arguing over the use of terms, I'd just like to point out how the four examples I gave all do seem to have a common thread. I would argue that they all meet the classic definition of illusionism because they all in some way take away player choice. Some are just more subtle than others.</p><p> </p><p>And on an even more basic level, simply because the game world is not real and the GM the authority in arbitrating what is in play, IMO it all hangs together on a certain amount of illusionism. Some forms of illusionism are quite subtle and there effect on player choice is equally subtle and difficult to define, but its always there in some form (IMO). </p><p></p><p>So, for the purposes of this discussion let's call things like the four examples I gave 'Hard Illusionism'. There exists I think 'Soft Illusionism' that is more or less inherent in the structure of a RPG and relates to two basic facts. First, that the DM's version of the imagined space is inherently more limited than a real space is. And secondly, that the game is intended to be fun. These constraints mean that the game is always employing various conciets in order to make it seem to the player that they have greater agency than they actually do and that the outcomes that the players are recieving are natural. Go any which way you want in GNS, and you find that at some level the style of gaming depends on an illusion. In gamism for example, IMO it depends on the illusion of fair competition. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with all of that. I'm not sure why you think it is corrective.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5180798, member: 4937"] I prefer a slightly broader definition of illusionism. ;) If you read the essay The Shaman linked to, you'll find my examples were a bit more broad than his. He attempted to limit illusionism solely to my example #1. That's fine, and if you want to stick to it, I'm not going to quibble over terminology - I'll invent the broader term. Rather than arguing over the use of terms, I'd just like to point out how the four examples I gave all do seem to have a common thread. I would argue that they all meet the classic definition of illusionism because they all in some way take away player choice. Some are just more subtle than others. And on an even more basic level, simply because the game world is not real and the GM the authority in arbitrating what is in play, IMO it all hangs together on a certain amount of illusionism. Some forms of illusionism are quite subtle and there effect on player choice is equally subtle and difficult to define, but its always there in some form (IMO). So, for the purposes of this discussion let's call things like the four examples I gave 'Hard Illusionism'. There exists I think 'Soft Illusionism' that is more or less inherent in the structure of a RPG and relates to two basic facts. First, that the DM's version of the imagined space is inherently more limited than a real space is. And secondly, that the game is intended to be fun. These constraints mean that the game is always employing various conciets in order to make it seem to the player that they have greater agency than they actually do and that the outcomes that the players are recieving are natural. Go any which way you want in GNS, and you find that at some level the style of gaming depends on an illusion. In gamism for example, IMO it depends on the illusion of fair competition. I agree with all of that. I'm not sure why you think it is corrective. [/QUOTE]
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