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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5185852" data-attributes="member: 4937">I guess now its my turn to jump on this.I agree with the statement with one reservation, but think the following statement works well for the same reasons:&quot;Illusionism is part of D&amp;D being a game.&nbsp; It really doesn't [necessarily] take anything away from the players or characters.&quot;When you jump into a forge discussion of scene framing, very quickly you are going to get into a discussion of what is meant by 'scene framing', and pretty soon someone is going to assert that all RPGs always have some sort of scene framing because no (PnP) RPG is truly continious.&nbsp; And since none are really continuous, they all have scene framing to represent the disparate passages of time between important events.&nbsp; The most frequent obvious one in D&amp;D is, &quot;Ok, it's the next day.&quot;, which is scene framing, but even, &quot;Ok, you go 80' further down the corridor, when...&quot; is also scene framing.When this is asserted, you think get into a discussion of what separates the different types and degrees of scene framing assumed by the rules of different games because usually the original poster wanted to talk about explicit scene framing, and so you end up in a discussion of 'soft scene framing' or 'hard scene framing' or 'heavy scene framing'.I'm doing the same thing with illusionism.&nbsp; My one reservation is that I think in both cases, the technique can become 'hard' enough that in fact it does take agency from the players.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5185852, member: 4937"] I guess now its my turn to jump on this. I agree with the statement with one reservation, but think the following statement works well for the same reasons: "Illusionism is part of D&D being a game. It really doesn't [necessarily] take anything away from the players or characters." When you jump into a forge discussion of scene framing, very quickly you are going to get into a discussion of what is meant by 'scene framing', and pretty soon someone is going to assert that all RPGs always have some sort of scene framing because no (PnP) RPG is truly continious. And since none are really continuous, they all have scene framing to represent the disparate passages of time between important events. The most frequent obvious one in D&D is, "Ok, it's the next day.", which is scene framing, but even, "Ok, you go 80' further down the corridor, when..." is also scene framing. When this is asserted, you think get into a discussion of what separates the different types and degrees of scene framing assumed by the rules of different games because usually the original poster wanted to talk about explicit scene framing, and so you end up in a discussion of 'soft scene framing' or 'hard scene framing' or 'heavy scene framing'. I'm doing the same thing with illusionism. My one reservation is that I think in both cases, the technique can become 'hard' enough that in fact it does take agency from the players. [/QUOTE]

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