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<blockquote data-quote="N8Ball" data-source="post: 4626497" data-attributes="member: 63757">Hyper, you've been around here forever and I've been reading you for a really long time and I have a lot of respect for your judgment on all these matters, but I would humbly submit that if you would consider that damage not to be &quot;other ill effects&quot;, but a separate thing, several confusions and contradictions resolve themselves.A have but a few points in my to support my humble offer before you smite me under the might of your 25,000 posts.1.&nbsp; The description of immunity in the DMG talks about &quot;damage or other ill effects&quot;.&nbsp; This would be redundant if &quot;ill effects&quot; were interpreted as you propose, but completely necessary if they were distinct things.2. The line you quote from the PHB 55 calls &quot;a power..is an acid effect.&quot;&nbsp; You are right to quote the text and your argument is not misunderstood, but I believe this to be a confusing and unintended use of the term &quot;effect&quot; on the part of the writers as it becomes problematic to talk about Effects (powers) that cause effects (status conditions).&nbsp; I believe the more appropriate use of the term &quot;effect&quot; is exemplified as seen in power descriptions. 3. In all the text of power descriptions in the game, the terms &quot;Effect:&quot; and &quot;effects&quot; refer exclusively to things other than damage.&nbsp; This is not exactly the most definitive point, but the sheer weight of precedence bears noticing.3a. Paladin 29 &quot;Even hand of Justice&quot;&nbsp; - Whenever the target makes an attack, its attack works as usual but it takes the full damage and effects of the attack as well.3b. PHB 226 &quot;Like racial powers and class powers, magic item powers have keywords that indicate their damage or effect types.&quot;I will now eviscerate myself with a butterknife for disagreeing with Hyper.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="N8Ball, post: 4626497, member: 63757"] Hyper, you've been around here forever and I've been reading you for a really long time and I have a lot of respect for your judgment on all these matters, but I would humbly submit that if you would consider that damage not to be "other ill effects", but a separate thing, several confusions and contradictions resolve themselves. A have but a few points in my to support my humble offer before you smite me under the might of your 25,000 posts. 1. The description of immunity in the DMG talks about "damage or other ill effects". This would be redundant if "ill effects" were interpreted as you propose, but completely necessary if they were distinct things. 2. The line you quote from the PHB 55 calls "a power..is an acid effect." You are right to quote the text and your argument is not misunderstood, but I believe this to be a confusing and unintended use of the term "effect" on the part of the writers as it becomes problematic to talk about Effects (powers) that cause effects (status conditions). I believe the more appropriate use of the term "effect" is exemplified as seen in power descriptions. 3. In all the text of power descriptions in the game, the terms "Effect:" and "effects" refer exclusively to things other than damage. This is not exactly the most definitive point, but the sheer weight of precedence bears noticing. 3a. Paladin 29 "Even hand of Justice" - Whenever the target makes an attack, its attack works as usual but it takes the full [I]damage and effects[/I] of the attack as well. 3b. PHB 226 "Like racial powers and class powers, magic item powers have keywords that indicate their [I]damage or effect types[/I]." I will now eviscerate myself with a butterknife for disagreeing with Hyper. [/QUOTE]

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