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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Janx" data-source="post: 6062123" data-attributes="member: 8835">well ignoring the "don't need rules" part of your post, as it's not useful to my exploration of the concept, I do glean some useful ideas from your other points and observations.I wouldn't want to cheapen a death or sacrifice.  In my estimate, they don't happen enough or plausibly (as in staying dead or even being worth it).One of the points you cite is getting such a bonus that it removes the uncertainty from defeating the monster.  In your example, you cite +20 bonuses.  Counter to that in my example, the only rule that gives a bonus is designed to give +1 for levels 1-4, +2 for levels 5-8, and so on.  I basically chose a modifier akin to what they'd get from wielding a level appropriate weapon.  There are buffs more powerful.  And you only get that IF your PC dies AND you choose NOT to allow him to be healed/raised.  Basically, burning your character sheet.  I'm inclined to think that's a fair payout for actually sacrificing your character in true D&D terms.  Nor does it ensure the party lives.  After all, the monster killed one PC, odds are good it'll gank another.The only action I've designed that has a "certain" outcome is the one where you stay behind to stop the bad guy while the party escapes.  I suppose that could feel cheap, after all the party KNEW they would make it.  But then again, one player's lost a PC (I had an extra clause for possibility of "getting better") but the main point was, your PC is out of play, party lives to fight another day.  The point was to enable running away (which many feel is really hard to do in D&D), but at a price.I think true destruction of a character is probably worth some certainty.  But even then, the player doesn't know what MIGHT have happened if they toughed it out.In your negative example of picking up the emperor and tossing him into lava, I don't have any plans to make a rule for that.  I imagine my Heroic Sacrifice rule would be modified to leave the fate of the Balrog in equal mystery.  So if Gandalf plays the Heroic Sacrifice card, he and the Balrog fall, and the party makes its escape.  In my original, I give out XP based on the encounter's value, but that's mainly because a player burned his character sheet for it, and they players haven't played out the encounter.  I would certainly modify my design to avoid "easy victory" by burning a party member, as that wouldn't be the rule's intent.There's a couple of ways to look at what I'm proposing with these kind of rules.  One is, that this is a form of ultimate Action Point.  Instead of spending a point to get a re-roll, you are spending your character's life to more strongly influence the outcome of an encounter for the good of the party.  Remember I'm assuming using these in normal D&D where healing and Raise Dead are quite common.  So a player isn't all that likely to face permanent death for his character.  I'm proposing giving him a more deliberate way to choose it for himself.I'm also looking at it as giving narrative control to the player.  In one of the early examples, while the player initiated it, the GM had to accept and enable the proposal for a heroic sacrifice to occur.  The GM could have easily hardlined it with strict rules checks that would negate it.  The party could have healed/raised him after the battle was won (and in one of the tales in danny's thread, that fact is bemoaned).With specific rules, the player looks at the scene and decides to make this a dramatic moment that the DM can't really thwart by misreading or mishandling the situation.I would still take your point about "absolutes" and "easy victory" to make these ideas not as fully insured on the outcome.  I think the main one at risk of that is the Heroic Sacrifice as it implies victory over the monster and guaranteed escape from the encounter.  the other 2 don't actually guarrantee anything as they outcome is still undeclared.</blockquote>

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