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Rule of the Three (1st of May)
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<blockquote data-quote="dkyle" data-source="post: 5897449" data-attributes="member: 70707"><p>The point is that a Theme that is custom designed can have a higher power level than a Theme that is just 5 feats, and still be balanced with a custom choice of 5 feats, because that custom choice is likely to produce a great deal of power.</p><p></p><p>Suppose a Theme that is simply 5 pre-determined feats has power level X</p><p></p><p>5 feats chosen by a competent player will always have at least power level X, almost certainly significantly more.</p><p></p><p>This is an imbalance. What I want is:</p><p></p><p>Designers build a Theme that is <em>more</em> than power level X, more powerful than the Theme they would design if they could only design Themes as pre-determined packages of feats.</p><p></p><p>Thus, this new Theme at least has a reasonable chance of being balanced with the custom feats option. Is balance guaranteed? Of course not. But at least there's a fighting chance.</p><p></p><p>The designers cannot do the same with the current Theme designs, because any increase in power level to pre-built Themes is inherently an increase in power level to the feats.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not talking about flavor either... I'm saying that if a customizable system can duplicate a Theme, thus trivially equaling its power level, it is extremely likely that other customized feat layouts will exceed it. If it takes some effort to even <em>match</em> a Theme's power level, it'll be that much harder to exceed it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If they think they can actually do that successfully, and build their system's balance around doing so, they are fooling themselves. WotC has never published a pre-gen even remotely close to optimized.</p><p></p><p>They have, however, published simpler versions of classes that were not simply pre-gens, that are quite well balanced with the original versions of those classes. I'm looking for them to do the same with Themes.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Essentials has been out for a long time now. There's no clear consensus among optimizers which is better, Slayer or PHB Fighter. They're just... different.</p><p></p><p>4E's a lot more balanced, and resistant to optimization, than you seem to think.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There are suggested builds for first level that you could use. Nothing beyond first level. I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about.</p><p></p><p>But anyway, those "suggested builds" just prove my point about pregens. They're at best not-terrible. And those are just the first level, where it's pretty hard to screw up 4E characters, anyway.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What I was talking about was a player weighing several options. Even if they aren't good at making characters, they're not going to choose a set of feats that they think is worse than the preset Theme feats, unless they're being intentionally perverse.</p><p></p><p>There's no absolute measurement of how "good" a build is. Only the comparisons a player can make according to their own priorities.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="dkyle, post: 5897449, member: 70707"] The point is that a Theme that is custom designed can have a higher power level than a Theme that is just 5 feats, and still be balanced with a custom choice of 5 feats, because that custom choice is likely to produce a great deal of power. Suppose a Theme that is simply 5 pre-determined feats has power level X 5 feats chosen by a competent player will always have at least power level X, almost certainly significantly more. This is an imbalance. What I want is: Designers build a Theme that is [i]more[/i] than power level X, more powerful than the Theme they would design if they could only design Themes as pre-determined packages of feats. Thus, this new Theme at least has a reasonable chance of being balanced with the custom feats option. Is balance guaranteed? Of course not. But at least there's a fighting chance. The designers cannot do the same with the current Theme designs, because any increase in power level to pre-built Themes is inherently an increase in power level to the feats. I'm not talking about flavor either... I'm saying that if a customizable system can duplicate a Theme, thus trivially equaling its power level, it is extremely likely that other customized feat layouts will exceed it. If it takes some effort to even [i]match[/i] a Theme's power level, it'll be that much harder to exceed it. If they think they can actually do that successfully, and build their system's balance around doing so, they are fooling themselves. WotC has never published a pre-gen even remotely close to optimized. They have, however, published simpler versions of classes that were not simply pre-gens, that are quite well balanced with the original versions of those classes. I'm looking for them to do the same with Themes. Essentials has been out for a long time now. There's no clear consensus among optimizers which is better, Slayer or PHB Fighter. They're just... different. 4E's a lot more balanced, and resistant to optimization, than you seem to think. There are suggested builds for first level that you could use. Nothing beyond first level. I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about. But anyway, those "suggested builds" just prove my point about pregens. They're at best not-terrible. And those are just the first level, where it's pretty hard to screw up 4E characters, anyway. What I was talking about was a player weighing several options. Even if they aren't good at making characters, they're not going to choose a set of feats that they think is worse than the preset Theme feats, unless they're being intentionally perverse. There's no absolute measurement of how "good" a build is. Only the comparisons a player can make according to their own priorities. [/QUOTE]
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