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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5726902" data-attributes="member: 61155">Ok, look, I think it is absolutely true that the complexity level of those powers is an issue, certainly. I don't think that ties into the specific situation being discussed, however. Those abilities do make it easier for the fighter to fulfill their role, even if, in your opinion, they make it more complicated to actually play.  The concerns about complexity are legitimate ones. But claiming that those two rules "don't do anything better than the basic rule of being engaged in melee and fighting withdrawal movements" is just flat-out 100% incorrect. There is a huge difference between "monster walks away from fighter and takes some damage" vs "monster tries to walk away from fighter and can't."  Or what about fragile melee PCs? If a monster is flanked by a fighter and a rogue, in 4E, if it turns around and tries to smash the rogue, the fighter can dish out some damage and penalize its attack roll. As opposed to... being able to do nothing about it other than watch the rogue get pulped.  These scenarios are not ones that Rich Baker has invented to justify his reasoning - they are ones I've seen firsthand countless times. You could very easily end up with very tough characters who many monsters would just ignore. Whether that means walking away from them and getting hit by an Opportunity Attack, or having the ability to knock the fighter away and then go for the wizard, or having reach, or whatever.  Now, I admit - these scenarios are drawn primarily on my experience with 3rd Edition. But do the rules for earlier editions really prevent a monster from walking up to a wizard and threatening it? Or choosing to ignore the fighter and smash the thief or the cleric who is also engaged with it in melee? Do those editions really offer any tools to the fighters themselves to allow them to discourage enemies from attacking their allies?  Yes, there are many monsters for who this wouldn't be an issue. Maybe the ogre is dumb enough that the fighter can yell at him and keep his attention. Maybe a monster is slow and can't get to the wizard. But many other monsters will fight tactically, and quite often the smart move is to ignore the meat shield and go get the healer and others.  4E actively gives the fighter tools to accomplish that. You might feel those tools present other issues in terms of complexity; that's an absolutely legitimate way to feel. But claiming those tools don't accomplish anything at all? Either shows inexperience with seeing such abilities in action, or a willful desire to ignore what they can do simply because it doesn't match the point you are trying to make.</blockquote>

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