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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5509707" data-attributes="member: 78116">So of the DMs on this board, I think I have the most obsession and interest with running games at high paragon/epic tier. A while back I saw an excellently written post by <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/arcanespringboard.html" target="_blank"> @</a><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=87400" target="_blank">ArcaneSpringboard</a>  on how epic tier was "dying". <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/297332-slow-death-epic-tier.html" target="_blank">Naturally I joined in on the topic and I recommend it as a read</a>. For the "too long, didn't read" bunch the summary is:1) Wizards haven't published an epic tier adventure in months.2) A DMG3, that presumably would have covered epic tier is non-existent due to their change in direction. Even though it is arguable a lot of DMs would like such a book (as the thread shows, a lot of people have a bit of difficulty getting their head around just what epic is supposed to be).3) Monsters in epic tier are very limited. Yeah it has lots of fantastic antagonists for an end game beatdown, but it lacks the rank and file creatures of heroic/paragon. Unless you love every encounter being elites and solos, or are running a campaign involving a *lot* of demons you can be in a lot of trouble finding monsters for your encounters. 4) Some DMs flat out don't see the point of epic tier and don't see what kind of stories fit there. Personally, this is just a flat out lack of explanation from Wizards and assistance.Particularly disappointing in regards to point 3 was that Monster Vault contained very few epic monsters. In fact it contained thirteen such monsters. Given the lack of adventures and the absolute lack of monsters - ancient dragons were a very obvious omission - it seemed to me that Wizards haven't really the best idea how to support epic tier (or worse, were abandoning it). As the next book to come out - threats to the Nentir vale - doesn't seem like the sort of thing to make up the lack of epic creatures there is a worry Wizards is just flat out going to give up on it.This was bought up in today's <a href="http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ro3/20110328" target="_blank">Rule of Three</a>.                     The preference for lower levels is because most games start there, it's easier to make characters for (ever tried making a level 25 character from scratch? It isn't fun let me tell you) and I have a third explanation: It simply hasn't been explained. For one thing, epic tier was genuinely broken pre-MM3 because monsters were so off mathematically that it was terrible. Monsters were bags of HP with defenses too high for the PCs to hit, but who couldn't actually do anything except ensure PCs got few turns (as they liked spamming daze/stun/dominate). Further a lot of DMs are just flat out intimidated by the complexity of epic - such as how many powers and abilities their party will have at this point. The answer to this from Wizards has been to utterly ignore the entire tier like it doesn't exist. MM3 was a great start - originally - because it added something immensely important. Lots of standard everyday guys to epic tier. Still badass, but it removed the whole "This tier is full of elites/solos and nothing else" feel. Demons also have a wide selection - but frankly if you don't like demons you should have options and that's what we're lacking. So what I think Wizard needs to do:1) More epic monsters and try to actually include them. It would be nice to get a "threats to the planes" book that covered all THREE tiers. Honestly there is enough room there for 40-50 monster blocks in the 20-30 range and it goes a long way. 13 and much of them being solos is just kicking a dood when he's down.2) Publish a DMG3 full of advice on running epic tier campaigns, epic tier adventuring and hazards. The most important thing though is an entire chapter not on the planes: But adventuring on the mortal world. How do the PCs fit in? How do you make a plot that works with the normal kingdoms and other things of the land (remembering that after level 20, by 4Es default assumptions your PCs are among the most powerful creatures that have lived). While they're at it with the whole DMG3 thing, publishing the new monster creation rules in it so it's all in one place would be fantastic.3) Better epic adventures that aren't really poor collections of linear dungeon "Killathons". The E series is not only hilariously easy because it's just poorly thought out, it's also very linear and basically glorified dungeon crawls. Really show what can be done at this tier - how whacky, zany and pure fun it can be. PCs are at the height of their power and facing their most powerful opponents - it should be the most important time of their career. DMs have the most leeway with designing truly out there encounters, because your PCs can take much more abuse than at any other tier and death isn't a big issue anymore.I really don't see why Wizards is confused on the issue. You completely ignore the tier entirely and you're amazed that nobody wants to take an interest in it.Edit: Funny, when this came up last year I wrote just about the same things then as I did now!</blockquote>

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