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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Riastlin" data-source="post: 5511410" data-attributes="member: 94022">I will say that there is nothing wrong with running campaigns that do not go into epic, and I do realize that not every campaign should go into epic.  As a DM though, I do think that at the start of the campaign, you should give your players an idea as to how long you want the campaign to run.  To me, this is part of the cooperative aspect of the game.   If the DM tells the players that he or she is preparing to run the game all the way to 30 (or 26 or whatever), then I do think that the players have a responsibility to create characters with the idea that they will go into epic.  So while taking over the Thieve's Guild and reforming it into a force for good might be a perfectly acceptable goal for a heroic or paragon campaign, the player should come up with something that would motivate her character into epic tier.  By the same token of course, if the DM says that his campaign will be ending at level 17, then the players should not be coming up with goals along the lines of "I want to replace the Raven Queen as the Goddess of the Dead", etc.  since obviously, the character will not get to achieve that goal in an enjoyable manner in a paragon campaign. As for are DM's scared to run epic?  I'm not sure I would necessarily say scared, but uncomfortable might certainly apply.  Lets face it, whether we like it or not, we, as DMs, acknowledge that we are largely responsible for ensuring that everyone at the table has a good time.  Certainly, its not solely our responsibility, but most everything is going to flow from the DM.  As has been noted, particularly with the way that Epic Destinies are described, epic tier brings a whole new kind of story to the table.  Not only is there an emphasis on the characters (as there should be at any level), but there's a specific emphasis on player-defined quests for each of the characters.  Granted, a player probably should work with his or her DM in designing their quest (which in a good group will help reduce much of the stress), but at the end of the day, it still comes down to each character choosing a quest that they want to complete. Now granted, DMs are used to creating hooks for specific characters throughout the campaign, but usually it comes from a much more generic background and the DM kind of runs with it.  This naturally makes it easier for DMs to weave everything together.  Frex:  A's brother is kidnapped by the criminal that B helped rescue and taken to the land from which C has been exiled and the criminal just so happens to be a cultist of Orcus which particularly offends D who is a cleric of the Raven Queen.  Obviously, this is off the cuff, but you get the idea.  Here you have one quest that all four characters can have interesting interactions with.  In epic, you need 4 - 6 specific quests which may or may not appeal to each of the characters.  Sometimes you can get lucky if there's enough overlap between some of the characters, but other times you'll just be out of luck. So I don't think DMs are necessarily scared, but I think many are uncomfortable.  We realize that we have these varying quests that need to be weaved into the overall story and weaved in such a way as to make them appealing to all of the players.  Its definitely a different feel from the other tiers and its something with which many DMs (even experienced ones) do not have a whole lot of experience with.  The fear (for lack of a better word) is that with it being this different, we'll fall flat on our face and the rest of the group will not have as much fun. This is where support for epic tier can really come in handy, imo.  Not just monsters (which would help a lot), but also advice on how to run it.  How do you weave these quests into the overall story and keep all of the players interested.  Nobody wants to spend two levels pursuing A's questline exclusively (well nobody but A), so how do you keep B, C, and D involved and advance their quests at the same time?</blockquote>

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