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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Barastrondo" data-source="post: 5512740" data-attributes="member: 3820">This is true, but it's also true of most boss fights. To the original question of "what player wouldn't want to go to the Abyss and kill Orcus?", the answer I propose is "not everyone." Replacing "orc chieftain" with "Orcus" doesn't automatically speak to every player; yes, you can raise more interest in it by working hard at context, but you can do that for every enemy. Which is why epic power levels, when they aren't enough on their own, need some extra attention to be made appealing.Quite agreed, especially (as I see it) given that epic tier has several obstacles to overcome that other tiers don't, such as mechanical complexity, a reduced focus on the mortal world and mortal NPCs, and a "climax" that extends over ten levels.Sure. But the major obstacle that stops me is being told "Now you're going to spend an entire third of your character's gaming career with no significant interaction with that mortal world you hold dear." The focus on taking things extraplanar is a big stumbling block for many characters who enjoy this world; there are many Azzagrats, but only one Ladona. For some players, yeah, that's not a big obstacle. For others, it's close enough to insurmountable that I think it really needs addressing. I think you have to leave aside the literary example precisely because (a) most players don't build their characters in such a fashion and (b) well, just speaking for myself, my players who do also base their characters on literary examples that never go into the "epic" over the course of their stories. These are the players who see their stories as something to be resolved in the mortal world. And they're also the ones who refine their motivations to adventure more carefully, often tying them specifically to the world. If a player wants to become the head of his House over the course of his career, leaving it behind to go tool around in other planes for ten entire levels may not be as attractive as simply saying "Goal achieved" and retiring.Yes. It should be more. And if there is really to be a Field of Dreams effect of "if you build it, they will come", you need to address the players who aren't as interested in saving the world.</blockquote>

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