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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6821337" data-attributes="member: 4937">I am the DM.Yes, I know.&nbsp; However, charms and compulsions are relatively well defined as to how they work.&nbsp; This isn't formally a 'mind affecting ability' but in practice it is one that is excluded from the Undead's normal immunity to such effects, which is fine, but it leaves it poorly defined.So long as you don't go over some cap on the maximum number of undead you can control, I'm ok with that.&nbsp; If that implies you can have an unlimited number of undead under your control, then that will get out of hand very fast.I don't think you are properly appreciating the power this opens up.&nbsp; Many undead have level invariant abilities which are extremely potent even at very high levels.&nbsp; A ghoul is a fairly weak undead that eventually becomes irrelevant because of its low BAB, but even a single ordinary shadow can easily take down a hydra because the shadow is immune to non-magical attacks, is incorporeal and all that implies, and has a strength draining touch attack that drains 1d6 strength with no save.&nbsp; A handful of shadows can easily disable many monsters while expending basically no effort - including your hydra.&nbsp; And they replicate, letting you easily replenish your shadow army.&nbsp; If control is not limited by range, you could easily send your shadows in as assassins from miles away.&nbsp;&nbsp; This allows PC's to do things otherwise only available as divine salient abilities.Oh good grief no.&nbsp; That makes it even worse.&nbsp; Dominate person is already pretty darn broken, but at least it is a 6th level spell.&nbsp;&nbsp; Dominate person not only gives you unlimited range for your mental control, but allows you to 'ride' your minions to see what they are doing.&nbsp;&nbsp; You could dominate a few shadows, ride them into a dungeon and overcome most resistance that a mid-level character would face with the greatest ease and perfect safety.&nbsp;&nbsp; As long as 'rebuke undead' is limited to maneuvering skeletons or zombies about the battlefield (as standard actions) then its not too broken.&nbsp; Even maneuvering ghouls isn't so bad.&nbsp; But many undead have extremely potent abilities that characters would otherwise not have available until very high level.&nbsp; Once you get to the level of sending shadows, ghosts, and wraiths on commando missions on your behalf, this is going to get out of hand really quick.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6821337, member: 4937"] I am the DM. Yes, I know. However, charms and compulsions are relatively well defined as to how they work. This isn't formally a 'mind affecting ability' but in practice it is one that is excluded from the Undead's normal immunity to such effects, which is fine, but it leaves it poorly defined. So long as you don't go over some cap on the maximum number of undead you can control, I'm ok with that. If that implies you can have an unlimited number of undead under your control, then that will get out of hand very fast. I don't think you are properly appreciating the power this opens up. Many undead have level invariant abilities which are extremely potent even at very high levels. A ghoul is a fairly weak undead that eventually becomes irrelevant because of its low BAB, but even a single ordinary shadow can easily take down a hydra because the shadow is immune to non-magical attacks, is incorporeal and all that implies, and has a strength draining touch attack that drains 1d6 strength with no save. A handful of shadows can easily disable many monsters while expending basically no effort - including your hydra. And they replicate, letting you easily replenish your shadow army. If control is not limited by range, you could easily send your shadows in as assassins from miles away. This allows PC's to do things otherwise only available as divine salient abilities. Oh good grief no. That makes it even worse. Dominate person is already pretty darn broken, but at least it is a 6th level spell. Dominate person not only gives you unlimited range for your mental control, but allows you to 'ride' your minions to see what they are doing. You could dominate a few shadows, ride them into a dungeon and overcome most resistance that a mid-level character would face with the greatest ease and perfect safety. As long as 'rebuke undead' is limited to maneuvering skeletons or zombies about the battlefield (as standard actions) then its not too broken. Even maneuvering ghouls isn't so bad. But many undead have extremely potent abilities that characters would otherwise not have available until very high level. Once you get to the level of sending shadows, ghosts, and wraiths on commando missions on your behalf, this is going to get out of hand really quick. [/QUOTE]

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