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<blockquote data-quote="Grogg of the North" data-source="post: 6821580" data-attributes="member: 6682960">Turn/Rebuke undead states that you can command any number of undead so long as their total HD does not exceed your level.&nbsp; While Turn/Rebuke doesn't say that this counts against the normal 4 x (caster) level, I would think that it's perfectly reasonable to say it does.&nbsp; Pale Master, from Libris Mortis, has abilities that it specifically calls out as not counting against that limit.&nbsp; Shadows are definitely one of the more powerful examples and are a staple for becoming a minion-mancer.&nbsp; Command one shadow, have it create spawn that it controls, repeat.&nbsp; If you're worried about something like that, I would just remind the group that tactics are a two way street.&nbsp; Send a bunch of shadows at the paladin king and you can expect a bunch of deathless (boo!) coming after you, too.&nbsp; The fact that everything is vague it strikes me that WotC was trying to discourage this play style.&nbsp; Another thing to consider is what if a commanded undead enters an area that blocks mental control, like a large magic circle.&nbsp; Does the commanded undead become free willed again?&nbsp; Does it lose its will when it leaves the area of suppression?I don't think I'd allow a rebuking cleric to gain the full sensory input, like dominate person.&nbsp; I just thought it was a good way to find something similar and make judgements from there.&nbsp; Command Undead is closer to a Charm spell than anything else which is why I didn't use that.&nbsp; If evil undead are typically employed in commando raids, would the world have adjusted for that?&nbsp; Would a goodly king have his keep warded against them?&nbsp; I checked Libris Mortis for what it had to say on Turn/Rebuke Undead.&nbsp; It's advice was &quot;don't&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Grogg of the North, post: 6821580, member: 6682960"] Turn/Rebuke undead states that you can command any number of undead so long as their total HD does not exceed your level. While Turn/Rebuke doesn't say that this counts against the normal 4 x (caster) level, I would think that it's perfectly reasonable to say it does. Pale Master, from Libris Mortis, has abilities that it specifically calls out as not counting against that limit. Shadows are definitely one of the more powerful examples and are a staple for becoming a minion-mancer. Command one shadow, have it create spawn that it controls, repeat. If you're worried about something like that, I would just remind the group that tactics are a two way street. Send a bunch of shadows at the paladin king and you can expect a bunch of deathless (boo!) coming after you, too. The fact that everything is vague it strikes me that WotC was trying to discourage this play style. Another thing to consider is what if a commanded undead enters an area that blocks mental control, like a large magic circle. Does the commanded undead become free willed again? Does it lose its will when it leaves the area of suppression? I don't think I'd allow a rebuking cleric to gain the full sensory input, like dominate person. I just thought it was a good way to find something similar and make judgements from there. Command Undead is closer to a Charm spell than anything else which is why I didn't use that. If evil undead are typically employed in commando raids, would the world have adjusted for that? Would a goodly king have his keep warded against them? I checked Libris Mortis for what it had to say on Turn/Rebuke Undead. It's advice was "don't". [/QUOTE]

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