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<blockquote data-quote="Joe Liker" data-source="post: 6436541" data-attributes="member: 6777505">A +2 to AC is a Very Big Deal. To state the obvious, it turns a 45% chance to hit into a 35% chance.As for the written rule about +2 just for wearing a shield, note that that rule is written with the supposition that you're not constantly swinging it about, trying to inflict damage with it. Otherwise, it would be listed on the weapon table and be given a damage expression.Yes, you can use it to shove and retain the AC bonus, but only as a feat, which is another Very Big Deal. Taking the feat means you've put a lot of extra training into being able to do this particular maneuver without sacrificing defense.To be able to do the same thing as the existing feat, only deal damage instead of shoving, should require at least as much sacrifice as the shoving maneuver. Which means it should probably require a feat to learn how to do it.It's not a question of whether it's possible to attack with a shield -- no one doubts that it is possible. It's not even about applying a temporary penalty when you do use it that way. The question is, what does it take to learn how to do such a thing in the first place?I know that in the real world, I personally could never in a million years deal any real damage with a shield I was trying to use defensively. But I can easily imagine someone training hard and learning to do exactly that. It wouldn't be part of learning to use the shield defensively (i.e., proficiency). It would be something extra -- something like a feat.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Joe Liker, post: 6436541, member: 6777505"] A +2 to AC is a Very Big Deal. To state the obvious, it turns a 45% chance to hit into a 35% chance. As for the written rule about +2 just for wearing a shield, note that that rule is written with the supposition that you're not constantly swinging it about, trying to inflict damage with it. Otherwise, it would be listed on the weapon table and be given a damage expression. Yes, you can use it to shove and retain the AC bonus, but only as a feat, which is another Very Big Deal. Taking the feat means you've put a lot of extra training into being able to do this particular maneuver without sacrificing defense. To be able to do the same thing as the existing feat, only deal damage instead of shoving, should require at least as much sacrifice as the shoving maneuver. Which means it should probably require a feat to learn how to do it. It's not a question of whether it's possible to attack with a shield -- no one doubts that it is possible. It's not even about applying a temporary penalty when you do use it that way. The question is, what does it take to learn how to do such a thing in the first place? I know that in the real world, I personally could never in a million years deal any real damage with a shield I was trying to use defensively. But I can easily imagine someone training hard and learning to do exactly that. It wouldn't be part of learning to use the shield defensively (i.e., proficiency). It would be something extra -- something like a feat. [/QUOTE]

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