Rules for subdue?

[gtoasnt3]

I realize that the "grab" rule only keeps a character from moving until escape. Is there a way that the "grab" action can lead to a character or monster keeping the grabbed person from attacking? In other words, immobilized and pinned like the grappling action from 3.5 edition?

 

[On Puget Sound]

I think the 4E term for being unable to move or attack is "helpless". Letting a single maneuver or power do that would be pretty game-breaking. I'd say that if you reduce someone to 0 HP or below, at your option you can define that as grabbing, disarming if needed, and pinning them rather than unconsciousness or death.

The "restrained" condition (immobilized plus grant CA, take -2 to attacks, and can't be forced to move) is a reasonable result IMO of a second successful grab on an already grabbed target...with the exception that the grabber can still move the target per the grab rules. There's no rule I'm aware of, though, for "restraining"; I'm home-cooking here.

 

[fba827]

There is also the thing about
"Whomever does the killing blow (reducing to less than 0) can elect to make it nonlethal" (or something like that). It's supposed to be the way you angle your sword or the way the fireburst didn't hit vital organs etc. That is when you have effectively incapacitated someone for tieing up and such... it was something like that, i have no idea where i read that though (it's been a while since i read it somewhere in the phb).

 

[Griogre]

The nonlethal damage rule is on pg 295 of the PH in the "Knocking Creatures Unconscious" section.

 

[CapnZapp]

There are no rules for subdual in 4th Edition.

As an aside, every subdual rule in every hit point based rpg ever created have been unbalanced to some extent.

Either 1) the subdual rules make it easier to defeat your foe (in which case it's stupid not to use that rule all of the time) or 2) it's more difficult (in which case noone ever uses the subdual rules).

Because of 2) the situation that almost always occurs is 1).

The conclusion is that any "realistic" subdual rules by their very definition will short-circuit the normal hp-based system. This is a bad idea.

Kudos to 4E for having the guts to not include any subdual system!

 

[HarbingerX]

... well technically they have a subdual system that is neither easier or harder than killing the foe - since it's the same thing. Still feels odd to say you're knocking someone unconsious after you find out that they are reduced to 0 hit points. I just ask the players to state if they are trying to do non-lethal damage, usually they let me know after the enemy is bloodied.

 

[balard]

In my game I ask if each attack is lethal or not. If its not, the attack has a -2 damage penalty. When the creature is down, I count how many attacks were lethal, make a percentage roll to see if its dead or not. Obviously its only the case when the life or death of the monster has some impact in the adventure.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I realize that the "grab" rule only keeps a character from moving until escape. Is there a way that the "grab" action can lead to a character or monster keeping the grabbed person from attacking? In other words, immobilized and pinned like the grappling action from 3.5 edition?

Some sort of house rule or class power. That's it.

 

[gtoasnt3]

Thanks for all the advice on this. I am really leaning towards not having a house rule on this, and keeping the rules as is.

I recall one of the most powerful 3.5ed PC's being a Monk that specialized in grappling. During one particular encounter at a ballroom dance with a disguised vampire/NPC, the Monk grappled him to a standstill. The only way the powerfully strong vampire could break free was to go gaseous and reveal himself. The module didn't have this reveal in the write, so I ad libbed, but I just felt that a human monk with 15 strength shouldn't have been able to subdue and immobilize a supernaturally strong vampire. His feats and abilities were all added together to make his grapple skill unbeatable and too many powerful minions and villains were wiped out without causing any threat to the Monk or the other PC's.

This being said, I've hung around this site for years and just read posts. I am more than impressed by the knowledge and creativity that you all bring to our game. Thanks!

 

[Danceofmasks]

Perhaps varying the description of using the Intimidate skill?
You can use it to force a bloodied enemy to surrender (though the DC is rather steep for a non-specialist).