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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zhaleskra" data-source="post: 6255917" data-attributes="member: 20544">I guess from the GM side, I'm against what I consider player laziness. Perhaps this has a lot to do with thinking "so you want everything done for you" when an ex-coworker told me why he likes D&D 4e. Also influenced by me considering one hour a reasonably short time to create a character. The systems I would consider rules-medium, are similar to the above description of Hero: there's a lot of work in making a character, but the rest of the basic rules can be easily memorized.Remember 3x's +2/-2 convenience? Well HARP does the same thing, except it's 20 instead of 2.World Tree has a lot of detail in character creation, and most of it is still used in play. The next rank in a skill costs 1 more than the current rank. In character creation, if you're raising a skill from say 0 to 5, that's a total of 15 skill points. Sure it drops some things after character creation: you'll never deal with advantage points in play, though you can still gain advantages and develop off disadvantages.</blockquote>