Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 3271372" data-attributes="member: 2020">Yes, I do - sincerely do - appreciate how powerful Harm was.&nbsp; In 2E, it was overwhelming (cast Harm, hold spell.&nbsp; Next round, strike with one hand with Harm, punch with other hand.&nbsp; Knock foe out, do with foe as you please.&nbsp;&nbsp; ... Or simply cast Harm, strike once, let fighter kill foe with sword strike after your turn.)&nbsp; And I appreciate that Harm was even MORE overwhelmingly powerful in 3.0.&nbsp; Because the cleric was much stronger in general, and had access to metamagic feats (such as casting Harm as a ranged touch spell ... shudders.)&nbsp; However, there has been a massive power escalation since 3.5 came out.&nbsp; Yes, Haste is nerfed, but we have the Frenzied Berserker.&nbsp; And so on.&nbsp; The Power Creep, as it is called, is widely noted.&nbsp; &nbsp; Note that I added in Gestalt, a very upgraded and enpowered version of Gestalt, as a standard rule.&nbsp; So a 1st level fighter/wizard would have all the abilities of both classes, plus the hit points of both classes (and bonuses would be doubled too), and save throws would stack, and skills would stack, and yes feats would stack (2 feats per level, instead of the 1 feat per level that I proposed.)&nbsp; You will say this is overwhelming, and perhaps you are right.&nbsp; But ...&nbsp; How many DMs really want the headache of finding high powered monsters to throw at high level characters?&nbsp; They didn't want to do it in my time, and I doubt they want to do it now.&nbsp; As powerful as that 1st level character is, he still has low hit points, a limit to feats (and feat selection, since you must be higher in level to take many feats), spell limits, BAB limits, and so on.&nbsp; A simple bugbear is still going to kill him or her.&nbsp; Now, as this relates to the 10th level cleric and her Harm ...&nbsp; Harm is incredibly powerful, but if you do the progression I have laid out, a 10th level gestalt character by my rules would be a full 20th level character!&nbsp; And the DM, if he is willing to run for 20th level characters, would be hurling 20th level foes at said cleric with the Harm spell.&nbsp; In which case, the Harm is powerful, but only relatively so.&nbsp; Everything is relative.&nbsp; If the enemy is a 20th level wizard with that Initiative of the Sevenfold Veil PrC, that equals one dead cleric.&nbsp; In 2nd edition, every cleric was eager - all too eager - to get to 11th level so they could have the mighty Autokill spell (and worse, to get to 14th level for the Destruction Autokill spell ...)&nbsp; Now, there would be less eagerness.&nbsp; There is quite enough Goodness at lower level to have.&nbsp; Does the character really wish to have to fight 20th level foes, to get her hands on that Harm?&nbsp; If yes, bully for her.&nbsp; But it's not a path for the timid.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Edena_of_Neith, post: 3271372, member: 2020"] Yes, I do - sincerely do - appreciate how powerful Harm was. In 2E, it was overwhelming (cast Harm, hold spell. Next round, strike with one hand with Harm, punch with other hand. Knock foe out, do with foe as you please. ... Or simply cast Harm, strike once, let fighter kill foe with sword strike after your turn.) And I appreciate that Harm was even MORE overwhelmingly powerful in 3.0. Because the cleric was much stronger in general, and had access to metamagic feats (such as casting Harm as a ranged touch spell ... shudders.) However, there has been a massive power escalation since 3.5 came out. Yes, Haste is nerfed, but we have the Frenzied Berserker. And so on. The Power Creep, as it is called, is widely noted. Note that I added in Gestalt, a very upgraded and enpowered version of Gestalt, as a standard rule. So a 1st level fighter/wizard would have all the abilities of both classes, plus the hit points of both classes (and bonuses would be doubled too), and save throws would stack, and skills would stack, and yes feats would stack (2 feats per level, instead of the 1 feat per level that I proposed.) You will say this is overwhelming, and perhaps you are right. But ... How many DMs really want the headache of finding high powered monsters to throw at high level characters? They didn't want to do it in my time, and I doubt they want to do it now. As powerful as that 1st level character is, he still has low hit points, a limit to feats (and feat selection, since you must be higher in level to take many feats), spell limits, BAB limits, and so on. A simple bugbear is still going to kill him or her. Now, as this relates to the 10th level cleric and her Harm ... Harm is incredibly powerful, but if you do the progression I have laid out, a 10th level gestalt character by my rules would be a full 20th level character! And the DM, if he is willing to run for 20th level characters, would be hurling 20th level foes at said cleric with the Harm spell. In which case, the Harm is powerful, but only relatively so. Everything is relative. If the enemy is a 20th level wizard with that Initiative of the Sevenfold Veil PrC, that equals one dead cleric. In 2nd edition, every cleric was eager - all too eager - to get to 11th level so they could have the mighty Autokill spell (and worse, to get to 14th level for the Destruction Autokill spell ...) Now, there would be less eagerness. There is quite enough Goodness at lower level to have. Does the character really wish to have to fight 20th level foes, to get her hands on that Harm? If yes, bully for her. But it's not a path for the timid. [/QUOTE]

Verification