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<blockquote data-quote="SirAntoine" data-source="post: 6130529" data-attributes="member: 6731904">Just wanted to say that mini's have been central to D&amp;D play from the very beginning.&nbsp; The forerunner of D&amp;D was a miniatures wargame called Chainmail, made by the same author.&nbsp; 2nd edition represented the game reaching a level of development that understood the value of extensive role-playing and suspension of disbelief, however.&nbsp; 2nd edition is manifestly superior to every other edition for this reason, save that 4th edition proved that a far more balanced game was actually possible.&nbsp; The sense of wonder many people keep looking for is the feel when something in print is awesome for its newness and the descriptions it has, independent of its &quot;discussed&quot; uses on the battle grid.&nbsp; The sense of wonder &quot;awed&quot; almost to a point where there wouldn't be any discussion.&nbsp; It is the consumption of 3rd edition, by so many, that has led to these issues today.&nbsp; I don't mean to bash any edition, just that 3rd edition introduced a new level of discussion between players about what their characters would be doing, both on the battle grid AND in character creation and building, with different feats and so on.&nbsp; And yes, having magic items &quot;in every city&quot;, for sale, didn't help because (newly discovered) magic items were one of the things that gave the game a sense of wonder literally.&nbsp; It was the fact that the game itself became something &quot;to be discussed so much in its components and procedures for play&quot;, that it opened up the entire gaming community to what has been like a practical (as opposed to a sense of wonder), almost scientific discussion.At the end of the day, what is taking place is we are all &quot;learning more&quot;, but &quot;also arguing more, and seeing that we don't know as much as we used to to feel ready to play&quot; at any given time or level of play.&nbsp; You &quot;have to learn it,&quot; and regardless of why or how cool it was to someone, you didn't have to do all this discussing before and the game &quot;felt&quot; quite different and was more ready to be used and for story-telling.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="SirAntoine, post: 6130529, member: 6731904"] Just wanted to say that mini's have been central to D&D play from the very beginning. The forerunner of D&D was a miniatures wargame called Chainmail, made by the same author. 2nd edition represented the game reaching a level of development that understood the value of extensive role-playing and suspension of disbelief, however. 2nd edition is manifestly superior to every other edition for this reason, save that 4th edition proved that a far more balanced game was actually possible. The sense of wonder many people keep looking for is the feel when something in print is awesome for its newness and the descriptions it has, independent of its "discussed" uses on the battle grid. The sense of wonder "awed" almost to a point where there wouldn't be any discussion. It is the consumption of 3rd edition, by so many, that has led to these issues today. I don't mean to bash any edition, just that 3rd edition introduced a new level of discussion between players about what their characters would be doing, both on the battle grid AND in character creation and building, with different feats and so on. And yes, having magic items "in every city", for sale, didn't help because (newly discovered) magic items were one of the things that gave the game a sense of wonder literally. It was the fact that the game itself became something "to be discussed so much in its components and procedures for play", that it opened up the entire gaming community to what has been like a practical (as opposed to a sense of wonder), almost scientific discussion. At the end of the day, what is taking place is we are all "learning more", but "also arguing more, and seeing that we don't know as much as we used to to feel ready to play" at any given time or level of play. You "have to learn it," and regardless of why or how cool it was to someone, you didn't have to do all this discussing before and the game "felt" quite different and was more ready to be used and for story-telling. [/QUOTE]

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