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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Oofta" data-source="post: 8850194" data-attributes="member: 6801845">I gave an example above, I'll expand a bit.  This is a stealth scenario, Tricksy the rogue is trying to sneak past some guards and into a building on the other side of a small gap. Corwin the cleric and Madge the Mage are a little ways away, far enough that they don't have to hide.  They can provide backup for Tricksy if necessary.  I'll assume this is in a city with a decent amount of background noise.There is some shrubbery left by some local knights on the side of the road.  There are 2 guards, A and B.  A is watching the street in the general direction of the shrubbery, B is watching in the other direction.Using either set of rules the DM has decided that the shrubbery provides enough cover so Tricksy can hide behind it.  The DM has also decided that the guards are bored and easily distractedStep 1: Tricksy is crouching down behind the shrubbery and is slowly creeping up to a gap.Step 2: Guard A starts walking past the shrubbery to the point where Tricksy could be clearly seen.Step 3: An assassin is sneaking up on Corwin and Madge.  Corwin has a high wisdom along with proficiency and prodigy in perception, along with the observant feet has a passive perception of 25 [I player actually did this in one of my games].How the game plays out:Step 1: Using either the old or new rules, the DM decided that there was somewhere that the PC could hide.  In either case, the DM has to make a ruling on whether or not there is sufficient cover.  Tricksy rolls a 16 for their stealth/hide check.5E: <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tricksy can be hidden from one guard and not another. In this case it would be the same number (they have passive perception 10 for this example).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The assassin may or may not be in a position to clearly see Tricksy and has a 13 passive perception.  In 5E it doesn't matter to the guards whether he sees Tricksy or not, he's not going to give away his position by shouting to let them know.</li> </ul> 2024: <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hidden is a condition, you are either hidden or not. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">To hide you succeed on a DC 15 check, enemy passive perception doesn't matter</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The enemy can try to make a perception check</li> </ul>Step 2: In both cases Tricksy is no longer behind cover from guard A, he is seen5E: <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tricksy is still hidden from guard B which gives the group options.  Tricksy could start combat and hope to take the guard out quickly, Corwin could cast a silence spell so A can't shout a warning,.</li> </ul> 2024: <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tricksy no longer has the hidden condition once A knows where Tricksy is.  Everyone rolls initiative</li> </ul>Step 3:5E: <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The assassin rolls stealth with a +9, gets a 20.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Corwin, with their passive perception of 25(!) notices the assassin and is not surprised if combat starts</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Madge with a normal passive perception doesn't notice the assassin and is surprised.</li> </ul> 2024: <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the assassin got a 20, neither Corwin nor Madge notices them.  Corwin is frustrated because his investment in perception has no effect.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the assassin got a 14 both Corwin and Madge notice them, even if Madge has a +0 perception.</li> </ul>I'll add a bonus step 4.  Let's say guard A was dealt with somehow and B is still unaware of Tricksy.5E <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The DM could decide that B is oblivious enough that Tricksy can cross the open space unnoticed</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Madge could cast an illusion to temporarily distract B, perhaps giving Tricksy advantage on their check or just making it automatic.</li> </ul> 2024: <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tricksy can't cross the gap and remain hidden because they are not behind cover.</li> </ul>With either set of rules, the DM is making a lot of decisions and rulings.  Does the shrubbery provide enough cover or not is the main one in this simple scenario.  Are Corwin and Madge out of sight enough so that they are automatically hidden? Are Corwin and Madge far enough away that with the noise of the city one of the guards is going to hear them casting a spell?But the rules for the 2024 lead to both weirdness such as B automatically knowing where someone is because A notices them.  Bugs me when this happens in video games, it will never happen in a game of D&D that I'm DMing.  It doesn't matter if Corwin has a +15 and Madge has a -1 on perception checks for noticing the assassin sneaking up on them. Tricksy can't, according to 2024 RAW sneak past B no matter how distracted they are because B could see him when he crosses the gap in step 4.The 2024 edition doesn't make the DM's life any easier, it complicates it.  Not only to they have to be more aware of the exact rule, if they want Tricksy to have a decent chance to get past the guards their hands are tied unless they ignore the rules.  It provides fewer options and decision points for the players as well.  More concrete, specific rules made the scenario worse all around as far as I'm concerned.</blockquote>

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