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Rules, Rules, Rules: Thoughts on the Past, Present, and Future of D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="Oofta" data-source="post: 8850856" data-attributes="member: 6801845"><p>I had no problem with the chart when was in the DMG because then it's just a suggestion, a starting point. I can look at it and decide to set the DC at what I think is appropriate. Trying to get past the bouncer, an indifferent NPC, at a local club? DC 10 (and maybe a couple of gold) works if it's a dive and not busy. DC 20 for a hot spot. DC 30 for the nightclub run by the mob and it's their neck on the line if the boss finds out how they got in. Perhaps it's impossible even though the NPC is just indifferent.</p><p></p><p>I think you're underestimating how many players, especially rules lawyers, will look at this and demand that because they got a 20 on their influence they can get whatever they want. I don't see the point of putting this chart in the PHB if the DM is just going to ignore or adjust as necessary. It becomes a rule, not a starting point suggestion and guideline when a DM is unsure.</p><p></p><p>Look at the chart for indifferent again. </p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Indifferent Creature’s Response </strong></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>10 </strong>The creature does as asked, as long as no risks or sacrifices are involved. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>20 </strong>The creature accepts a minor risk or sacrifice to do as asked.</p><p></p><p>There's no nuance, for lack of a better term, in this chart. I've had players that I guarantee would look at this chart, max out their persuasion and then expect to get indifferent people to help them all the time and then argue about level of risk. Heck, a friendly creature "accepts a significant risk or sacrifice to do as asked". So ... because you're friends with the local bartender you can just ask them to risk their lives? What does significant risk or sacrifice even mean? How friendly do they need to be?</p><p></p><p>It establishes, in the minds of many players, that influence becomes almost akin to mind control whether that is the intent or not. At least when the chart was in the DMG it didn't do much harm because nobody reads the DMG.</p><p></p><p>But it pales in comparison to the new rules of becoming hidden. I think <em>that</em> is a horrible set of rules including a DC 15 check to hide. Hidden as a condition, instead of being hidden from specific creatures, is also bad but that may just need clarification that you can be hidden from some creatures but not others.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Oofta, post: 8850856, member: 6801845"] I had no problem with the chart when was in the DMG because then it's just a suggestion, a starting point. I can look at it and decide to set the DC at what I think is appropriate. Trying to get past the bouncer, an indifferent NPC, at a local club? DC 10 (and maybe a couple of gold) works if it's a dive and not busy. DC 20 for a hot spot. DC 30 for the nightclub run by the mob and it's their neck on the line if the boss finds out how they got in. Perhaps it's impossible even though the NPC is just indifferent. I think you're underestimating how many players, especially rules lawyers, will look at this and demand that because they got a 20 on their influence they can get whatever they want. I don't see the point of putting this chart in the PHB if the DM is just going to ignore or adjust as necessary. It becomes a rule, not a starting point suggestion and guideline when a DM is unsure. Look at the chart for indifferent again. [INDENT][B]Indifferent Creature’s Response [/B][/INDENT] [INDENT][B]10 [/B]The creature does as asked, as long as no risks or sacrifices are involved. [/INDENT] [INDENT][B]20 [/B]The creature accepts a minor risk or sacrifice to do as asked.[/INDENT] There's no nuance, for lack of a better term, in this chart. I've had players that I guarantee would look at this chart, max out their persuasion and then expect to get indifferent people to help them all the time and then argue about level of risk. Heck, a friendly creature "accepts a significant risk or sacrifice to do as asked". So ... because you're friends with the local bartender you can just ask them to risk their lives? What does significant risk or sacrifice even mean? How friendly do they need to be? It establishes, in the minds of many players, that influence becomes almost akin to mind control whether that is the intent or not. At least when the chart was in the DMG it didn't do much harm because nobody reads the DMG. But it pales in comparison to the new rules of becoming hidden. I think [I]that[/I] is a horrible set of rules including a DC 15 check to hide. Hidden as a condition, instead of being hidden from specific creatures, is also bad but that may just need clarification that you can be hidden from some creatures but not others. [/QUOTE]
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