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Rules, Rulings and Second Order Design: D&D and AD&D Examined
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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 9041705" data-attributes="member: 7006"><p>No, see I actually understand what [USER=6790260]@EzekielRaiden[/USER] is coming from here and why they are butting up against you. Because you and they are not seeing the same scenario the same way or parsing the language the same way.</p><p></p><p>To use your example of food... a chef isn't cooking "tastes good". That's not a thing. Rather what they doing is cooking a steak. THAT is their end state. That is their end goal-- to cook a steak. And everything they are doing is to cook that steak. Now the hoped-for <em>result </em>of cooking that steak is for it to "taste good". And all the bits and bobs they add to their recipe go towards their cooked steak tasting good. No one disagrees with that. But before you can get to "tastes good" step in the process you need to decide on what it is you are actually cooking <em>first</em>, and then work <em>towards</em> it tasting good. You can't have "tastes good" until you have "steak".</p><p></p><p>That's where you both are butting heads. You appear to me to be skipping the part of deciding on the thing and going straight to the "fun"-- the "tastes good". But Ezekiel isn't doing that because "fun" in and of itself isn't a thing-- it's not an object-- that you can put in these books. Instead, "fun" is the result that comes <em>from</em> a thing-- a rule. We have to put in the rules <em>first</em> and then have or make those rules <em>be</em> fun. From their perspective in the conversation, one can't have the fun until you make the rules.</p><p></p><p>You both are ending up at the same result... a game and game rules and a rulebook that is fun to play. But they are just suggesting you need to stop at the "making the rules" step first and then the fun can come out of it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 9041705, member: 7006"] No, see I actually understand what [USER=6790260]@EzekielRaiden[/USER] is coming from here and why they are butting up against you. Because you and they are not seeing the same scenario the same way or parsing the language the same way. To use your example of food... a chef isn't cooking "tastes good". That's not a thing. Rather what they doing is cooking a steak. THAT is their end state. That is their end goal-- to cook a steak. And everything they are doing is to cook that steak. Now the hoped-for [I]result [/I]of cooking that steak is for it to "taste good". And all the bits and bobs they add to their recipe go towards their cooked steak tasting good. No one disagrees with that. But before you can get to "tastes good" step in the process you need to decide on what it is you are actually cooking [I]first[/I], and then work [I]towards[/I] it tasting good. You can't have "tastes good" until you have "steak". That's where you both are butting heads. You appear to me to be skipping the part of deciding on the thing and going straight to the "fun"-- the "tastes good". But Ezekiel isn't doing that because "fun" in and of itself isn't a thing-- it's not an object-- that you can put in these books. Instead, "fun" is the result that comes [I]from[/I] a thing-- a rule. We have to put in the rules [I]first[/I] and then have or make those rules [I]be[/I] fun. From their perspective in the conversation, one can't have the fun until you make the rules. You both are ending up at the same result... a game and game rules and a rulebook that is fun to play. But they are just suggesting you need to stop at the "making the rules" step first and then the fun can come out of it. [/QUOTE]
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