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Rules, Rulings and Second Order Design: D&D and AD&D Examined
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<blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 9043576" data-attributes="member: 7023840"><p>Gotcha. So I'm not entirely sure I'd phrase it like that. Not that you're wrong, but ...</p><p></p><p>So normally the question arises in the context of the actual designer of the game. Think of it in terms of ... oh, how they intend the game to be played. They have to be cognizant of the difference between the first-order and second-order design. This isn't even specific to TTRPGs, although other fields might use different names. A good UI Engineer, for example, is always cognizant of how people will actually use something.</p><p></p><p>Personally, I think the question isn't really about GMs and/or players doing second-order design- at that point, they are just doing "first-order design" but for their individual table! Instead, it's about the level of concern that a given designer has with second-order design. </p><p></p><p>To use 5e as an example, I would argue that it deliberately eschewed an approach that dictated second-order design. In other words, while there are a fair amount of rules that people tend to agree on (how many hit points does a first level fighter get?), there is also a lot of area where the game doesn't dictate how tables play ... I would say that this is deliberate. In fact, one of the things that I think frustrates people about the DMG .... if they ever read it! ... is that it can be frustratingly "It's all good, do what you want!" when it comes to providing DM's advice, which is great when you telling people that what they are doing is great, but less good when you are trying to teach new DMs how to do it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Snarf Zagyg, post: 9043576, member: 7023840"] Gotcha. So I'm not entirely sure I'd phrase it like that. Not that you're wrong, but ... So normally the question arises in the context of the actual designer of the game. Think of it in terms of ... oh, how they intend the game to be played. They have to be cognizant of the difference between the first-order and second-order design. This isn't even specific to TTRPGs, although other fields might use different names. A good UI Engineer, for example, is always cognizant of how people will actually use something. Personally, I think the question isn't really about GMs and/or players doing second-order design- at that point, they are just doing "first-order design" but for their individual table! Instead, it's about the level of concern that a given designer has with second-order design. To use 5e as an example, I would argue that it deliberately eschewed an approach that dictated second-order design. In other words, while there are a fair amount of rules that people tend to agree on (how many hit points does a first level fighter get?), there is also a lot of area where the game doesn't dictate how tables play ... I would say that this is deliberate. In fact, one of the things that I think frustrates people about the DMG .... if they ever read it! ... is that it can be frustratingly "It's all good, do what you want!" when it comes to providing DM's advice, which is great when you telling people that what they are doing is great, but less good when you are trying to teach new DMs how to do it. [/QUOTE]
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