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General Tabletop Discussion
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Rules, Rulings and Second Order Design: D&D and AD&D Examined
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<blockquote data-quote="Pedantic" data-source="post: 9043702" data-attributes="member: 6690965"><p>Without getting into the "what even is a game?" discourse, I think I understand the proposal in this specific case just fine. This is just stripped down cooperative storytelling, there is no resolution of actions that isn't established by the players themselves. I can imagine some secondary procedures that might emerge (say, maybe I start a description unfinished, with the intent that the other player will fill in what comes next), but there isn't a ton of space for more rules. I'd quibble about whether this is a comparable class of activity to what I'm generally doing when I play a TTRPG, but I think that about a lot of stuff that lives under the broad umbrella.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So this is the area I'm prodding at. What's different, really, about moving the design questions away from the people publishing sourcebooks, to the person at the table? There's different people doing the work in both cases and in different environments, but the process, and any insights into how design might work still hold in both environments. I could take a system that leaves a lot of this in the air and start applying my own sensibilities, and whatever I produce could essentially be republished as a sourcebook of new rules.</p><p></p><p>I don't know that I see a virtue in intentionally pushing that work down the line from your initial product, so I'm looking for a trait that separates doing the design work there, from doing it before the first book comes out that creates one. I might just be looking in the wrong place. I'm trying to find a way to understand praise/critique of rules that push for second-order design, because so much of it seems to be built on future, second-order designs that don't actually exist yet, or aren't available to anyone else in the discussion to review.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Pedantic, post: 9043702, member: 6690965"] Without getting into the "what even is a game?" discourse, I think I understand the proposal in this specific case just fine. This is just stripped down cooperative storytelling, there is no resolution of actions that isn't established by the players themselves. I can imagine some secondary procedures that might emerge (say, maybe I start a description unfinished, with the intent that the other player will fill in what comes next), but there isn't a ton of space for more rules. I'd quibble about whether this is a comparable class of activity to what I'm generally doing when I play a TTRPG, but I think that about a lot of stuff that lives under the broad umbrella. So this is the area I'm prodding at. What's different, really, about moving the design questions away from the people publishing sourcebooks, to the person at the table? There's different people doing the work in both cases and in different environments, but the process, and any insights into how design might work still hold in both environments. I could take a system that leaves a lot of this in the air and start applying my own sensibilities, and whatever I produce could essentially be republished as a sourcebook of new rules. I don't know that I see a virtue in intentionally pushing that work down the line from your initial product, so I'm looking for a trait that separates doing the design work there, from doing it before the first book comes out that creates one. I might just be looking in the wrong place. I'm trying to find a way to understand praise/critique of rules that push for second-order design, because so much of it seems to be built on future, second-order designs that don't actually exist yet, or aren't available to anyone else in the discussion to review. [/QUOTE]
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