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Rules, Rulings and Second Order Design: D&D and AD&D Examined
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<blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 9043772" data-attributes="member: 7023840"><p>So I appreciate what you're saying, and that you come at this from a boardgames perspective, and I'm going to make a final post before calling it a night.</p><p></p><p>This is an imperfect analogy, but perhaps is will help. Imagine you're trying to make a game for kids. You might have a perfect idea for what they should do. And you'll design a game around it. Or, perhaps you want to design something that you know that kids will do ... whatever they want with. And so you make ... legos. You provide the blocks, knowing that they'll make things you never planned.</p><p></p><p>It's similar (not the same, but similar). Originally, the game was very much a hobbyist game, and it was assumed that the rules were just guidelines, to be modified and changed as needed. There was an expectation that you couldn't control second-order design. In a certain way, this spirit carried through with D&D. Of course, nothing last forever. Over time, especially (and with slightly different points of emphasis) this changed with 3e and 4e. But this idea that the game would be modified was still extant in the community with 5e. </p><p></p><p>I'm not trying to glorify this. There are many great games that try, through various methods, to control for and constrain second-order design. On the other hand, some games (and explicitly 5e) acknowledge second-order design but remain fully agnostic regarding certain aspects of it. For some people, this is a continuing source of frustration; for others, it is a source of strength. Still others don't fully understand it and continually look to what the RAW proscribe as "the way the game must be played." I think, though, that it's a category error to say that this abdication of responsibility is either good design, or bad design, but to instead examine what it means.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Snarf Zagyg, post: 9043772, member: 7023840"] So I appreciate what you're saying, and that you come at this from a boardgames perspective, and I'm going to make a final post before calling it a night. This is an imperfect analogy, but perhaps is will help. Imagine you're trying to make a game for kids. You might have a perfect idea for what they should do. And you'll design a game around it. Or, perhaps you want to design something that you know that kids will do ... whatever they want with. And so you make ... legos. You provide the blocks, knowing that they'll make things you never planned. It's similar (not the same, but similar). Originally, the game was very much a hobbyist game, and it was assumed that the rules were just guidelines, to be modified and changed as needed. There was an expectation that you couldn't control second-order design. In a certain way, this spirit carried through with D&D. Of course, nothing last forever. Over time, especially (and with slightly different points of emphasis) this changed with 3e and 4e. But this idea that the game would be modified was still extant in the community with 5e. I'm not trying to glorify this. There are many great games that try, through various methods, to control for and constrain second-order design. On the other hand, some games (and explicitly 5e) acknowledge second-order design but remain fully agnostic regarding certain aspects of it. For some people, this is a continuing source of frustration; for others, it is a source of strength. Still others don't fully understand it and continually look to what the RAW proscribe as "the way the game must be played." I think, though, that it's a category error to say that this abdication of responsibility is either good design, or bad design, but to instead examine what it means. [/QUOTE]
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