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<blockquote data-quote="EOL" data-source="post: 66551" data-attributes="member: 823">That is an excellent point with a couple of caveats.&nbsp; First Dominate does have some language limitations.&nbsp; If you don't share a common language the commands can only be very basic, not quite the same level of language limitation of suggestion, but it's there.&nbsp; Secondly a wizard has no excuse to not know just about every language, with 3 or 4 bonus languages at the beginning and at 2 skill points a pop, it's pretty cheap.This speaks to one of the points that has come out in this thread, that yeah it is subjective and the DM has to make a judgement call, and once he has the players have to live with it.Neither do I, but the creatures in question were not fodder most were high level fighters, and since suggestion doesn't have &quot;humanoid&quot; limit, mass suggestion could just as easily be used against a group of dragons.&nbsp; You may think it would never get past their &quot;good&quot; will save, but a 12th level enchanter should reasonably cast a mass suggestion with a will save of 27 (Adjusted Int 24 w/ +4 item plus greater spell focus) in a group of 12 adult red dragons on average at least three would have their SR penetrated and fail their saves.&nbsp; Give him greater spell penetration and it's 4.&nbsp; Give him four mass suggestions, two rounds and a haste spell and it's 10 of the 12.&nbsp; Those are adult Reds with CR 14 and 22 HD.&nbsp; Given this example and as a B.A.D.D. member I'm inclined to be view suggestion and mass suggestion with a very strict interpretation, since it would take the 9th level spell dominate monster to affect even one of the dragons.&nbsp; So I would have big problems with any ruling which skirts even short-term identical effects.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="EOL, post: 66551, member: 823"] [B][/b] That is an excellent point with a couple of caveats. First Dominate does have some language limitations. If you don't share a common language the commands can only be very basic, not quite the same level of language limitation of suggestion, but it's there. Secondly a wizard has no excuse to not know just about every language, with 3 or 4 bonus languages at the beginning and at 2 skill points a pop, it's pretty cheap. [b][/b] This speaks to one of the points that has come out in this thread, that yeah it is subjective and the DM has to make a judgement call, and once he has the players have to live with it. Neither do I, but the creatures in question were not fodder most were high level fighters, and since suggestion doesn't have "humanoid" limit, mass suggestion could just as easily be used against a group of dragons. You may think it would never get past their "good" will save, but a 12th level enchanter should reasonably cast a mass suggestion with a will save of 27 (Adjusted Int 24 w/ +4 item plus greater spell focus) in a group of 12 adult red dragons on average at least three would have their SR penetrated and fail their saves. Give him greater spell penetration and it's 4. Give him four mass suggestions, two rounds and a haste spell and it's 10 of the 12. Those are adult Reds with CR 14 and 22 HD. Given this example and as a B.A.D.D. member I'm inclined to be view suggestion and mass suggestion with a very strict interpretation, since it would take the 9th level spell dominate monster to affect even one of the dragons. So I would have big problems with any ruling which skirts even short-term identical effects. [/QUOTE]

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