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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pming" data-source="post: 7451439" data-attributes="member: 45197">Hiya!Ahhh....TPK's! My specialty! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />...whoa whoa whoaaaa there buddy! Since when is it my job, as DM, to "tell the Players this is an extra-deadly monster"? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Ok, I think what you mean is "Foreshadowing". It's a term in writing about giving clues to what is to come. "A hallway", no foreshadowing. "A hallway, perfectly clean, not a scrap of debris other than a few small, rounded stones pushed into the corners where wall meets floor. No cobwebs, no dirt, no bones, no indescribable bits and pieces. Clean". That's foreshadowing that should be screaming "Something unnatural came through here...". A DM that uses foreshadowing well uses it primarily as a means of building Tension. Yes, the side effect is giving the players (or readers, if it's a story) a hint about what it could be, probably isn't, and what they should be on the look out for.But to 'telegraph' that some monster is "extr deadly" with the purpose being to, effectively, protect the Players from having their PC's put in an actually dangerous situation? Popycock! Popycock I say!Uh, if the PC's are 5th level and in a cave system taking out the goblins who have been harassing farmers and travelers...they this is what would be considered a "dick move" by the DM. It's not "unfair", it's just one of those things that goes against the base principles of an RPG: The folks sitting around the table are there to play a game, socialize, laugh, and have a good time.Now, with PC's being 18th level doing the same thing because they keep hearing that NOBODY ever escapes the caves...including the Kings Champion and a cadre of other mid-level NPC's...well, the players now know "somethings up with them there goblins...they ain't normal goblins!". But this, again, is a subtle form of foreshadowing.So, if the PC's are low level and this happens...the "dick factor" is significantly higher than any foreshadowing.Er...it doesn't have to be "escapable" if the DM provided enough foreshadowing AND the players were smart enough to do some preliminary scouting/investigation/intel-gathering prior to just 'heading off to get whatever is killing the sheep'. This is the "let the chips fall where they may" principle of the 1e AD&D DMG. If the DM has provided some good, creepy, foreshadowing, and knows who would have known something about it in town, and provided logical expectations of whatever the monster "is" (e.g., a dragon probably would have been seen by someone...big things flying in the sky would be noticed by anyone in a several mile radius...or if it's an Unberhulk then there are likely tunnels of large size, with exit 'holes' in the fields where the sheep graze...), then it should all be good.1. My DM Response: "Hahahahhahhaaa.....ahahahhh....ahhhh....mmmm....sorry. What did you say? I thought you said that you figured I wouldn't 'put a monster that's too tough for you'".2. My DM Response: "Hahahahhahhaaa.....ahahahhh....ahhhh....mmmm....sorry. What did you say? I thought you said something  about being invincible at level 7 or something".3. My DM Response: "Hahahahhahhaaa.....ahahahhh....ahhhh....mmmm....sorry. You guys are awesome! But you know what they say...there's a fine line between heroic and stupid".4. My DM Response: "... ... ... That? ... THAT's your plan? ... ... Oooo-kaaayyyy...."5. My DM Response: "It looks rather angry...not fearful. But it is looking straight at you, Presto the Magician".6. My DM Response: "...sorry guys. Not a lot you could do with those horrible rolls and being pretty much out of spells. Not to mention the barbarian had only 14 HP left...and everyone else had less. Oh, wait...I guess you guys could have effing turned around and ran! *sigh* Live and learn, right?"I agree with this general statement. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> If you are in battle and thinking "We should probably run"...it's likely already too late. Best bet I've found is the "Split up and everyone RUN!"...and each PC picks a different direction and start hoofing it. If it's only one monster, it has a choice...giving the other PC's a MUCH greater chance of survival, but pretty much signing the chased PC's death certificate. Also, the heroic sacrifice of one PC to "hold it back as long as possible" is also a tactic...desperate...but gods damned HEROIC if you ask me!My suggestion is simple: Don't ever get into the situation where the players are "expecting to win". If you can get your players to "expect to die...horribly", then they tend towards caution and paying more attention to all those "little things". Little things like simply asking nearby farmers about 'whatever' is going on, maybe casting a divination type spell or two, or doing a 'scout of the area around' whatever location. It also has the added benefit of giving the players a real sense of success when they are successful (re: don't die). In my opinion, "adventuring" SHOULD be a 'job' only for the insane. An 'adventurer' deciding to go into a deadly surrounding they are completely unfamiliar with to face off against more or less completely unknowable foes, where a single misstep could spell their instant death...those people are insane. Kinda like someone deciding "Hey, lets fly to some war-torn third country, buy some guns, and go capture Warlords and drug king-pins! We'll be rich!".  <-- Insane.A DM that runs a campaign in an "uncaring and neutral manner", focusing on bringing the world to life, where the 'world' reacts appropriately...regardless of the PC's capabilities... will naturally bring his Players skill level up. It's a side effect, really. If the world 'changes' to suit the PC's capabilities (re: everything is always within the PC's "ECL" or whatever), then the players WILL do pretty much every one of the 6 listed things above. As the Basic D&D "Red Box" Dungeon Masters Book says on page 2 under "The Most Important Rule": BE FAIR I take this to mean "fair as in don't favour the PC's or the Monsters"...not as in "don't put the PC's up against anything too dangerous". Why? The first interpretation (mine) has a LOT less drawbacks than going with the second interpretation.Then again, by todays standards, I'm a Killer DM. So...^_^Paul L. Ming</blockquote>

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