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<blockquote data-quote="tylermalan" data-source="post: 5740470" data-attributes="member: 30929">Cool, man!&nbsp; It's whatever you want to do!Again, it doesn't matter how he sees himself.&nbsp; The only thing that matters is how the standard of good and evil sees him.&nbsp; If that standard, that universal judge of morality, sees him as evil, then he is evil.&nbsp; Detect Evil will ping him as evil.&nbsp; Smite Evil will work on him.&nbsp; Etc.&nbsp; You continue to ignore the best point against your position, which is that if there were no objective standard, then these abilities would have no meaning.&nbsp;I'm gonna quote myself again here:So, no, I'm not &quot;one of those DMs!&quot;I agree!&nbsp; Notice you said &quot;most.&quot;&nbsp; There are certain creatures who CANNOT change their alignment, as there are certain qualities about them that are ALWAYS evil.&nbsp; If there are certain qualities that are ALWAYS considered evil, then I ask you: who does the considering?&nbsp; What thinks about it, and decides that certain actions are ALWAYS evil?&nbsp; I argue that the fact that there are qualities that are always evil means that there is a hard-and-fast, set-in-stone standard upon which these qualities are judged.&nbsp; This is essentially the definition of &quot;objective morals.&quot;Once again... if the objective moral standard of D&amp;D views slavery as evil, then Lawful Good societies who practice slavery are NOT Lawful Good.&nbsp; I don't know if it does or not, and my purpose in this thread has never been to debate whether or not certain actions themselves would be considered good or evil by the objective moral standard.My only point is that there IS an objective moral standard.&nbsp; My PRIMARY supporting evidence, which everyone continues to ignore (instead choosing weaker arguments to fight against that I'm only half-making), is that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to DEFINITIVELY and OBJECTIVELY call a certain creature &quot;evil&quot; or &quot;good&quot; (as in the case of devils) if there were no objective standard upon which to base such a label.&nbsp; The fact that purely, inherently, all-the-time evil creatures exist is definitive proof that there is a universal standard upon which they are considered evil.&nbsp; Smite Evil would NEVER work in a subjective moral universe.&nbsp; Atonement would mean nothing.&nbsp; Detect Evil?&nbsp; Forget about it!Please argue against this point, and provide something, anything in the way of evidence that supports your position.&nbsp; Remember - asking me if specific actions would be considered evil or good is not actually supporting your position, because I don't know what the objective moral standard would say about every single action.&nbsp; I, personally, am not the objective moral standard.&nbsp; Also, pointing out that some creatures can change alignment means nothing - in fact, the idea that every creature ALWAYS has an alignment of some sort only furthers my point that there is an objective standard which determines exactly what that alignment is.&nbsp; I only know that there is SOMETHING out there that ALWAYS considers Devils to be evil, and I have yet to hear someone mention something that contradicts this point.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tylermalan, post: 5740470, member: 30929"] Cool, man! It's whatever you want to do! Again, it doesn't matter how he sees himself. The only thing that matters is how the standard of good and evil sees him. If that standard, that universal judge of morality, sees him as evil, then he is evil. [i]Detect Evil[/i] will ping him as evil. Smite Evil will work on him. Etc. You continue to ignore the [i]best[/i] point against your position, which is that if there were no objective standard, then these abilities would have no meaning. I'm gonna quote myself again here: So, no, I'm not "one of those DMs!" I agree! Notice you said "most." There are certain creatures who CANNOT change their alignment, as there are certain qualities about them that are ALWAYS evil. If there are certain qualities that are ALWAYS considered evil, then I ask you: who does the considering? What thinks about it, and decides that certain actions are ALWAYS evil? I argue that the fact that there are qualities that are always evil means that there is a hard-and-fast, set-in-stone standard upon which these qualities are judged. This is essentially the definition of "objective morals." Once again... if the objective moral standard of D&D views slavery as evil, then Lawful Good societies who practice slavery are NOT Lawful Good. I don't know if it does or not, and my purpose in this thread has never been to debate whether or not certain actions themselves would be considered good or evil by the objective moral standard. My only point is that there IS an objective moral standard. My PRIMARY supporting evidence, which everyone continues to ignore (instead choosing weaker arguments to fight against that I'm only half-making), is that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to DEFINITIVELY and OBJECTIVELY call a certain creature "evil" or "good" (as in the case of devils) if there were no objective standard upon which to base such a label. The fact that purely, inherently, all-the-time evil creatures exist is definitive proof that there is a universal standard upon which they are considered evil. Smite Evil would NEVER work in a subjective moral universe. Atonement would mean nothing. Detect Evil? Forget about it! Please argue against this point, and provide something, [i]anything[/i] in the way of evidence that supports your position. Remember - asking me if specific actions would be considered evil or good is [i]not actually supporting your position[/i], because I don't know what the objective moral standard would say about every single action. I, personally, am not the objective moral standard. Also, pointing out that [i]some[/i] creatures can change alignment means nothing - in fact, the idea that every creature ALWAYS has an alignment of some sort only furthers my point that there is an objective standard which determines exactly [i]what[/i] that alignment is. I only know that there is SOMETHING out there that ALWAYS considers Devils to be evil, and I have yet to hear someone mention something that contradicts this point. [/QUOTE]

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