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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5073582" data-attributes="member: 18280">Thank you for the examples.&nbsp; They demonstrate pretty well what I mean by mischaracterizing (or misunderstanding) arguments here.&nbsp; Indeed, the idea that some investure = pixel bitching (&quot;explaining in exacting detail precisely what your characters are doing&quot;) is specifically decried in one of the posts you example as suggesting that this sort of behaviour is mandatory!Example:LC:&nbsp; &quot;Everybody will do what we set out to do in the first place.&nbsp; If nothing valuable of interesting is in the sacks, the cleric will then help the magic-user search the refuse and burn the webs overhead in case there are an more spiders hiding up there.&quot;

DM:&nbsp; &quot;The sacks hold rotten grain, so the cleric will go and help the magic-user as ordered.&nbsp; They find the refuse consists of castings, some husks of small victims of the spider, hide, bones, a small humanoid skull, and 19 silver pieces.&nbsp; Do you now fire the webs overhead?&quot;

LC:&nbsp; &quot;Examine the skull first.&nbsp; What kind of humanoid was it?&nbsp; Can we tell?&quot;

DM:&nbsp; &quot;Possibly a goblin.&nbsp; When you are looking at it more closely, you see that there is a small gem inside -- a garnet.&quot;

LC:&nbsp; &quot;That's more like it!&nbsp; Put it safely in your pouch, along with the silver pieces, Good Cleric, and light the spiderweb.&quot;

DM:&nbsp; &quot;The strands burn quickly, flame running along each and lighting others touched.&nbsp; You see several young spiders crisped as the mass of webs near the top of the chamber catches fire.&quot;

LC:&nbsp; &quot;That's that.&nbsp; What is seen down the three corridors leading out of the place?&quot;That should take how long in actual play?&nbsp; Two minutes?&nbsp; Five?It is contrasted withDM:&nbsp; No problem, then.&nbsp; You feel fine.&nbsp; Looking at the pile of debris, you'd guess it's probably refuse from the spider - leftovers of its victims and its own castings.&nbsp; Amid bits of bone and tatters of clothing, you find 19 silver pieces.&nbsp; And make a Search roll.

Mialee rolls a 9 and adds her +6 bonus for a result of 15 -- just enough to notice the hidden gem!

DM:&nbsp; You also see something sparkle inside a small skull.&nbsp; Looking closer, you see it's a gem -- a garnet.The first requires input from the player beyond the obvious, whereas the second requires a die roll.&nbsp; The player's realization that identifying the skull might give them a clue to future encounters is rewarded by finding the garnet.Neither one takes much more time than the other.&nbsp; The big difference in time spent during the adventure should be that AD&amp;D combat goes far faster than 3e combat; the AD&amp;D characters should get far more &quot;game&quot; done than the 3e characters.Another big difference is that, in the 3e example, the DM tells the player to make a Search roll, thus alerting the players to keep looking until they roll high.&nbsp; Or to just take 20.&nbsp; Clearly, the 3e players are going to recover far more treasure (if the game is played as the respective DMGs example) than the AD&amp;D characters, and with far less effort.The 3e characters can also Appraise the treasure on-site, if they so desire.&nbsp; The only reason, in the example, that Mialee does not is that they want to burn the webs overhead.RC</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 5073582, member: 18280"] Thank you for the examples. They demonstrate pretty well what I mean by mischaracterizing (or misunderstanding) arguments here. Indeed, the idea that some investure = pixel bitching ("explaining in exacting detail precisely what your characters are doing") is specifically decried in one of the posts you example as suggesting that this sort of behaviour is mandatory! Example: [indent]LC: "Everybody will do what we set out to do in the first place. If nothing valuable of interesting is in the sacks, the cleric will then help the magic-user search the refuse and burn the webs overhead in case there are an more spiders hiding up there." DM: "The sacks hold rotten grain, so the cleric will go and help the magic-user as ordered. They find the refuse consists of castings, some husks of small victims of the spider, hide, bones, a small humanoid skull, and 19 silver pieces. Do you now fire the webs overhead?" LC: "Examine the skull first. What kind of humanoid was it? Can we tell?" DM: "Possibly a goblin. When you are looking at it more closely, you see that there is a small gem inside -- a garnet." LC: "That's more like it! Put it safely in your pouch, along with the silver pieces, Good Cleric, and light the spiderweb." DM: "The strands burn quickly, flame running along each and lighting others touched. You see several young spiders crisped as the mass of webs near the top of the chamber catches fire." LC: "That's that. What is seen down the three corridors leading out of the place?"[/indent] That should take how long in actual play? Two minutes? Five? It is contrasted with [indent]DM: No problem, then. You feel fine. Looking at the pile of debris, you'd guess it's probably refuse from the spider - leftovers of its victims and its own castings. Amid bits of bone and tatters of clothing, you find 19 silver pieces. And make a Search roll. [i]Mialee rolls a 9 and adds her +6 bonus for a result of 15 -- just enough to notice the hidden gem![/i] DM: You also see something sparkle inside a small skull. Looking closer, you see it's a gem -- a garnet.[/indent] The first requires input from the player beyond the obvious, whereas the second requires a die roll. The player's realization that identifying the skull might give them a clue to future encounters is rewarded by finding the garnet. Neither one takes much more time than the other. The big difference in time spent during the adventure should be that AD&D combat goes far faster than 3e combat; the AD&D characters should get far more "game" done than the 3e characters. Another big difference is that, in the 3e example, the DM tells the player to make a Search roll, thus alerting the players to keep looking until they roll high. Or to just take 20. Clearly, the 3e players are going to recover far more treasure (if the game is played as the respective DMGs example) than the AD&D characters, and with far less effort. The 3e characters can also Appraise the treasure on-site, if they so desire. The only reason, in the example, that Mialee does not is that they want to burn the webs overhead. RC [/QUOTE]

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