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Message: <blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7289451" data-attributes="member: 6919838">SaelornIn one post you comnent on how players can optimize their characters with tactics and with optimization, contrasting that with DM monsters who have tactics poisibly but a set CR for a set of stats.Then, in a closely following post, you mention how chsnging monster stats changes the CR.Then you toss out that as throwing higher CR at party with the goal being same CR.This is not a problem of the game as much as it is a problem of deliberatly chosen conflucting constraints.For the CR system, and much of the game, there is a general mid-ground baseline assumption about what "a group of four level x" can do. That is **not** the same as an expectation, **not** the same as a **prescription** and **not** the same as a restriction. It is just a tool for getting the various parts on a relatively close and similar scale.And likely as not there are few games that match that assumption precisely or even close. There are plenty of differences in what any given party of four level x characters will do as far as output in one game vs another. Just as tactical ability will vary between two different groups, so will build optimization and so will tactical discipline and so will even environmental opportunities.All of which points out something that you will see references alk thru the books... For balance LEVEL and CR are both just approximations and the GM has to figure out essentially what his specific party's EFFECTIVE LEVEL is relative to the CR.The game could certainly raise the base default stat blocks for more raw power of a CR17 macguffin to match a baseline assumption of four character level 17 top end optimized tacticians... But then for all those games where optimized was not as much the norm or where precision tactical play did not become the expected norm, there would be just as much breakdown of the CR baselines to expectations.Thats why the CR system as it is is really, lets face it, tuned to a level where inexperienced to middle quality outputs are the norm and not to the more peak performance - because it is expected the high end performing output games will be using the "assess and adjust accordingly" to balance encounters.Its not "throwing higher CR" at a level X party to look at the party and play ecperience with them and say "they play at level x+y" and then use the multitude of tools and tricks recommended to provide a CR x+y challenge encounter - remembering that attention to the baseline encounter goal of  easy, hard, deadly etc and such Net result - holding "level" as a fixed value in the level-cr system and not adjusting it for "differences/variations from normal" while requiring for your argument that VR must be adjusted for changes/variations from normal is a restriction/conatraint **you** are imposing that is in itself, maybe by design, creating the problem.But, let me ask you this... Look at the stat blocks for the various "standard" npcs in the MM or PHB. Will whatever you imagine your well played well built party of four do more output than four of thosr NPCs of similar level? If so, then consider - is not your "level" just as "altered" as far as its value for CR as you here insist a dragon with added spells or abilities should be?Sent from my VS995 using <a href="http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=93205" target="_blank">EN World mobile app</a></blockquote>

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