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<blockquote data-quote="ClaytonCross" data-source="post: 7294530" data-attributes="member: 6880599">If the MM works in both the cases you describe and not in the cases you say it doesn't then your issues is not with the MM but with player /GM style miss match. There is no MM change that will ever fix that and as you said &quot;it is indeed generally up to the DM to make D&amp;D work.&quot; Because it is not on the book to account for Player / GM miss match.Also, an CR17 adult Dragon is a good epic fight for a 1 or 2 level 17 player characters as the XP system indicates. I think your problem is your setting an CR17 Adult Dragon against a group of 4 level 17 players characters under the incorrect assumption that should be an equivalent fight but its not. An Adult Dragon (18,000XP) is a deadly challenge for the epic fight your talking about with a group of 4 Player characters no higher than level 12 (4,500 xp each for a total of you guessed it 18,000) ... So if your using the CR only to determine your challenges and your putting your group of 4-5 level 17 player characters against a single CR17 adult dragon of course you are getting the instant kill dragon but not because the MM is wrong but because your not not following the instructions. Now if your party is 4 &quot;Dragon slayers&quot; designed with the appropriate elemental resistance, swords and arrows of dragon slaying, and casters with long range attacks all power gaming for DPS... your also going to find the dragon weak against them because they invested to do that. They might not do so well against the CR17 Death Knight .... Again this is not a flaw in the CR/XP system it simply that the CR/XP system is a very good guideline and as you said ultimately its the GM that makes D&amp;D work.... So if he sends the dragon to fight Dragon slayers then maybe its on easy mode but then maybe that is what they asked for if the GM sends the death Knight instead.. well maybe they have a rougher day than expected.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ClaytonCross, post: 7294530, member: 6880599"] If the MM works in both the cases you describe and not in the cases you say it doesn't then your issues is not with the MM but with player /GM style miss match. There is no MM change that will ever fix that and as you said "it is indeed generally up to the DM to make D&D work." Because it is not on the book to account for Player / GM miss match. Also, an CR17 adult Dragon is a good epic fight for a 1 or 2 level 17 player characters as the XP system indicates. I think your problem is your setting an CR17 Adult Dragon against a group of 4 level 17 players characters under the incorrect assumption that should be an equivalent fight but its not. An Adult Dragon (18,000XP) is a deadly challenge for the epic fight your talking about with a group of 4 Player characters no higher than level 12 (4,500 xp each for a total of you guessed it 18,000) ... So if your using the CR only to determine your challenges and your putting your group of 4-5 level 17 player characters against a single CR17 adult dragon of course you are getting the instant kill dragon but not because the MM is wrong but because your not not following the instructions. Now if your party is 4 "Dragon slayers" designed with the appropriate elemental resistance, swords and arrows of dragon slaying, and casters with long range attacks all power gaming for DPS... your also going to find the dragon weak against them because they invested to do that. They might not do so well against the CR17 Death Knight .... Again this is not a flaw in the CR/XP system it simply that the CR/XP system is a very good guideline and as you said ultimately its the GM that makes D&D work.... So if he sends the dragon to fight Dragon slayers then maybe its on easy mode but then maybe that is what they asked for if the GM sends the death Knight instead.. well maybe they have a rougher day than expected. [/QUOTE]

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