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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6466436" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>You are free to disagree, but your reasons are all very vague and subjective. Without some indication of what you <em>actually</em> mean <em>in play</em> by these things, this is all just Argument Clinic-ing with soundbites and milquetoast catchphrases. Artificers don't need a pep talk to be a full class, they need a solid design grounding!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This so far is subclass-level stuff. Components are minor. If what they're doing is still producing the effect of "I cast <em>fireball</em>," the fact that they put it into an item and someone else casts it later isn't enough to distinguish them from anyone else that casts fireball. It's not nothing, but it's not big enough to make them a different class, since they still mostly contribute via spell effects (and the class that mechanically contributes the most via spell effects is the wizard). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How is this distinguished from spending higher-level slots on lower-level spells? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Lets get specific. What do you mean by "a bunch of different mechanics." What does "mixing and matching" look like to you?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>...y'know, I can see the seed of a pretty robust independent class system there. "Rider effects." Hmm...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, "metamagic item." This ability is also pretty minor (given that the wands you'll find in treasure holds are not an essential trait of your character).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, that's all just "don't break it." Yeah, don't break it. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That would definitely be big enough. I think it might have a few other issues, but size would not be one of 'em! </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This brings up something I'm thinking about unrelated to the size of the artificer's class abilities...how to keep the artificer's actions distinctly "artificer"-y. Item creation and infusion of spells is all well and good, but that's downtime/rest stuff, and they should still be making interesting round-to-round decisions. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, anything that depends on magic items from the DMG to function is going to be pretty minor, simply because magic items are not the defining element of a character that they were previously. </p><p></p><p>Some good foundations there! I am going to think especially more about your "rider effects" idea...it's true that there isn't a good way to replicate some of 3e's more interesting design ideas about item construction, and that could be lootable in certain ways for an artificer's class abilities.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6466436, member: 2067"] You are free to disagree, but your reasons are all very vague and subjective. Without some indication of what you [I]actually[/I] mean [I]in play[/I] by these things, this is all just Argument Clinic-ing with soundbites and milquetoast catchphrases. Artificers don't need a pep talk to be a full class, they need a solid design grounding! This so far is subclass-level stuff. Components are minor. If what they're doing is still producing the effect of "I cast [I]fireball[/I]," the fact that they put it into an item and someone else casts it later isn't enough to distinguish them from anyone else that casts fireball. It's not nothing, but it's not big enough to make them a different class, since they still mostly contribute via spell effects (and the class that mechanically contributes the most via spell effects is the wizard). How is this distinguished from spending higher-level slots on lower-level spells? Lets get specific. What do you mean by "a bunch of different mechanics." What does "mixing and matching" look like to you? ...y'know, I can see the seed of a pretty robust independent class system there. "Rider effects." Hmm... Yeah, "metamagic item." This ability is also pretty minor (given that the wands you'll find in treasure holds are not an essential trait of your character). Well, that's all just "don't break it." Yeah, don't break it. ;) That would definitely be big enough. I think it might have a few other issues, but size would not be one of 'em! This brings up something I'm thinking about unrelated to the size of the artificer's class abilities...how to keep the artificer's actions distinctly "artificer"-y. Item creation and infusion of spells is all well and good, but that's downtime/rest stuff, and they should still be making interesting round-to-round decisions. Yeah, anything that depends on magic items from the DMG to function is going to be pretty minor, simply because magic items are not the defining element of a character that they were previously. Some good foundations there! I am going to think especially more about your "rider effects" idea...it's true that there isn't a good way to replicate some of 3e's more interesting design ideas about item construction, and that could be lootable in certain ways for an artificer's class abilities. [/QUOTE]
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