Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
S/Z: On the Difficulties of RPG Theory & Criticism
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7921268" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Good post. </p><p></p><p>Couple thoughts:</p><p></p><p>1) Like you said, I would call the "artificial/contrived" constraints of BitD's setting (Doskvol) "System Force" or perhaps "Premise Constraint." There are also other aspects of the game that keep play bounded as well; the siloed "3-phase" and scene-based nature of play, the lower power curve of the PCs/Crew, and how the Heat mechanics force the players to always consider their profile.</p><p></p><p>2) Relating directly to the above, consider how close this resembles Basic D&D vs Expert and Champion:</p><p></p><p>a) Constrained setting of the dungeon in Basic with resolution mechanics that work precisely for that setting + a lower power curve of PCs + Wandering Monster/Exploration mechanics that force the players to consider their "Exploration/Resource" profile...</p><p></p><p>vs </p><p></p><p>b) Moving out into the wilderness and urban settings for E and C (which means more options for declared actions) + resolution mechanics that become less focused/fit for purpose + higher power curve of PCs (therefore more answers for obstacles and less pressure-points) + system machinery/clocks (Heat and Wandering Monsters) does less work to force players to consider their profile.</p><p></p><p>3) Torchbearer mirrors Blades in all ways above (with difference in nuance).</p><p></p><p>4) Games that have scene-based resolution and/or that have "Journey mechanics" do the same thing; they constrain in the way Doskvol does while they focus/distill/narrow action declarations toward the specific scene premise and resolution mechanics to achieve the scene's "win condition".</p><p></p><p>[HR][/HR]</p><p></p><p>I think there is also another thing that happens when it comes to the "System Force" of things like the "premise/setting constraint" and Blade's Duskvol and Basic/Torchbearer's adventuring sites and Scene-Based-Resolution/Journey mechanics (D&D 4e, Cortex +, Dungeon World among others); things that constrain a GM away from Force.</p><p></p><p>Some players can feel somewhat annoyed in their OODA Loop because, due to the zoom/abstraction and level of constraint, they experience a kind of sense of "information loss" (that is the best way I can think to put it) which screws with their transition from Observe to Orient and then from Orient to Decide.</p><p></p><p>I don't experience this, but its clearly a thing and likely. Some players ( probably [USER=23935]@Nagol[/USER] ) experience this only when their expectations of the game aren't met. Nagol can happily play scene-based resolution games (Fate and probably Cortex+) but he doesn't want scene-based resolution in his D&D (hence he didn't like 4e D&D).</p><p></p><p>I guess what I'm saying is...freedom from Force can come with a price that may feel like a prison to certain players (I'm using "players" as a catch-all; so participants).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7921268, member: 6696971"] Good post. Couple thoughts: 1) Like you said, I would call the "artificial/contrived" constraints of BitD's setting (Doskvol) "System Force" or perhaps "Premise Constraint." There are also other aspects of the game that keep play bounded as well; the siloed "3-phase" and scene-based nature of play, the lower power curve of the PCs/Crew, and how the Heat mechanics force the players to always consider their profile. 2) Relating directly to the above, consider how close this resembles Basic D&D vs Expert and Champion: a) Constrained setting of the dungeon in Basic with resolution mechanics that work precisely for that setting + a lower power curve of PCs + Wandering Monster/Exploration mechanics that force the players to consider their "Exploration/Resource" profile... vs b) Moving out into the wilderness and urban settings for E and C (which means more options for declared actions) + resolution mechanics that become less focused/fit for purpose + higher power curve of PCs (therefore more answers for obstacles and less pressure-points) + system machinery/clocks (Heat and Wandering Monsters) does less work to force players to consider their profile. 3) Torchbearer mirrors Blades in all ways above (with difference in nuance). 4) Games that have scene-based resolution and/or that have "Journey mechanics" do the same thing; they constrain in the way Doskvol does while they focus/distill/narrow action declarations toward the specific scene premise and resolution mechanics to achieve the scene's "win condition". [HR][/HR] I think there is also another thing that happens when it comes to the "System Force" of things like the "premise/setting constraint" and Blade's Duskvol and Basic/Torchbearer's adventuring sites and Scene-Based-Resolution/Journey mechanics (D&D 4e, Cortex +, Dungeon World among others); things that constrain a GM away from Force. Some players can feel somewhat annoyed in their OODA Loop because, due to the zoom/abstraction and level of constraint, they experience a kind of sense of "information loss" (that is the best way I can think to put it) which screws with their transition from Observe to Orient and then from Orient to Decide. I don't experience this, but its clearly a thing and likely. Some players ( probably [USER=23935]@Nagol[/USER] ) experience this only when their expectations of the game aren't met. Nagol can happily play scene-based resolution games (Fate and probably Cortex+) but he doesn't want scene-based resolution in his D&D (hence he didn't like 4e D&D). I guess what I'm saying is...freedom from Force can come with a price that may feel like a prison to certain players (I'm using "players" as a catch-all; so participants). [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
S/Z: On the Difficulties of RPG Theory & Criticism
Top