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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7576473" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>This is an interesting argument. You say there's no causality in "If X, Y" but then say that if Y occurs, it causes X to occur simultaneously, if X has not already occurred on its own. Interesting, but not consistent with itself.</p><p></p><p>You are correct that "If X, Y" does not strictly imply causality, but you've gone further than that to claim it cannot be a casaul relatioshop, and this is wrong. Especially in this case. For "If X, Y" to be non-causal, X and Y must be independent of each other, or, at worst, both caused by some other Z. This is observed in that "If X, Y" does not imply Y cannot exist without X, ie, you can have a Y without an X, but if you have X, you will also have Y.</p><p></p><p>But, that's not the case with Shield Master because you cannot ever have the bonus action shove without the condition being true. This extra requirement is part of the general bonus action rule -- you don't have one unless something gives it to you -- which is a causal statement. This must be considered with Shield Master.</p><p></p><p>Further, while duration of actions is meaningless within the 5e action structure (actions have no assigned duration), the turn structure does have a clear <em>order</em>. Therefore, since there is an order, and since actions a discrete elements (you pick from a menu of actions with unique results and can't mix and match results), and since the Shield Master bonus action's very existence is predicated on taking the Attack action, you <em>must</em> take the Attack action before you can use the bonus action shove.</p><p></p><p>Now, you maybe can get a bit smeary about timing and take your shove between Extra Attacks, but you cannot say that the conditional existence of the bonus action means that its existence can cause its conditional to be true. It's the other way around because the "If X, Y" in Shield Master is a casual statement due to the nature if bonus actions being explicitly caused by other game elements. </p><p></p><p>This also addresses the timing question. Since the bonus action shove is caused by taking the Attack action and since combat turns are ordered sequences, the Shield Master conditional is therefore a statement of timing.</p><p></p><p></p><p>[Edited to fix some spelling errors, but probably not all soellibg errors.]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7576473, member: 16814"] This is an interesting argument. You say there's no causality in "If X, Y" but then say that if Y occurs, it causes X to occur simultaneously, if X has not already occurred on its own. Interesting, but not consistent with itself. You are correct that "If X, Y" does not strictly imply causality, but you've gone further than that to claim it cannot be a casaul relatioshop, and this is wrong. Especially in this case. For "If X, Y" to be non-causal, X and Y must be independent of each other, or, at worst, both caused by some other Z. This is observed in that "If X, Y" does not imply Y cannot exist without X, ie, you can have a Y without an X, but if you have X, you will also have Y. But, that's not the case with Shield Master because you cannot ever have the bonus action shove without the condition being true. This extra requirement is part of the general bonus action rule -- you don't have one unless something gives it to you -- which is a causal statement. This must be considered with Shield Master. Further, while duration of actions is meaningless within the 5e action structure (actions have no assigned duration), the turn structure does have a clear [i]order[/i]. Therefore, since there is an order, and since actions a discrete elements (you pick from a menu of actions with unique results and can't mix and match results), and since the Shield Master bonus action's very existence is predicated on taking the Attack action, you [i]must[/i] take the Attack action before you can use the bonus action shove. Now, you maybe can get a bit smeary about timing and take your shove between Extra Attacks, but you cannot say that the conditional existence of the bonus action means that its existence can cause its conditional to be true. It's the other way around because the "If X, Y" in Shield Master is a casual statement due to the nature if bonus actions being explicitly caused by other game elements. This also addresses the timing question. Since the bonus action shove is caused by taking the Attack action and since combat turns are ordered sequences, the Shield Master conditional is therefore a statement of timing. [Edited to fix some spelling errors, but probably not all soellibg errors.] [/QUOTE]
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