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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Asgorath" data-source="post: 7577103" data-attributes="member: 6921966">Why must it be A or B here?  There's a third option C, which is simply this: the PHB defines what each action is.  They are specific rules that apply to the action they are defining alone, and not general rules that apply to the whole game.  I really think that this is where you've gone off the rails and it's forcing you to make conclusions that are not supported by the words in the PHB.  I apologize in advance as this post will likely be long, but I will make one more attempt to explain why it doesn't have to be A or B as you defined them here.  I'm going to start with some basic assumptions, in particular that in order for you to actually be able to do something during combat, there must be a rule that says you can do that thing.  Similarly, I'm going to assume that the simplest outcome for a given rule is the correct one, as this helps to ensure that turns in combat are generally quick and easy (as apparently this was one of the goals of the 5E combat system, unlike previous editions).5E is an exceptions-based game, where specific rules can override general ones.  This is defined at the start of the PHB:To be clear, this does not mean that if one spell says the game works in a particular way, that this has created a general rule and that's how the game works in all cases.  Some people have argued that spells like Sanctuary or Shield imply that the Attack action or actions in general must work in a certain way, but this is not correct: the spells provide exceptions to the rules governing those actions, and apply to those spells only.Here are some general rules for combat:This is the foundation on which we build everything else, and it sets up the precedent that there is an order to the individual elements of your turn.  That is, there are clearly-defined portions of your turn "before your action" and "after your action".  This suggests that the elements of your turn are played and resolved sequentially, and that order matters.At this point, I think it's worth talking about one of the most important features of the combat system, namely reactions.The Ready action, which sets up a reaction, also says:Why do I suggest that discrete elements must be resolved sequentially and that order matters?  The answer is simple: there might be a reaction waiting to happen, with a trigger of any individual element on your turn. Going forward, let's imagine that one of the enemies you are fighting is Bob, who has the Sentinel and War Caster feats and access to the Banishment spell.So, on your turn, you have movement and an action.  The rules state you can move before or after your action, or split your movement so you move first, take the action, and then move again.  Each of these discrete elements must be played and resolved independently, because Bob could be waiting to banish you at any point.  For example, the trigger of his Ready action of casting the Banishment spell might be "if an enemy moves within 15' of my friend Jim".  In order for this to work, the state of the game must advance forward in discrete steps as you perform each element of your turn.  If my turn starts with using some of my movement to get into melee range of Jim and then take my action, the movement must be resolved first and independently of the action, so that the reaction trigger can also be resolved as soon as it becomes true.Perhaps Bob did not actually have a Ready action waiting for me, so now I'm in melee range of his friend Jim and can take my action.  The PHB lists 10 standard actions, with rules for each specific action.  Again, as I said earlier, the rule for one action is a specific rule for that action alone, not a general rule for the whole game.  When adjudicating a specific action, we must simply look at the text for that action alone.  There are actions that provide a temporary buff for a specified duration, for example the Disengage or Dodge actions.  These actions clearly list the effect and duration in the words of the rules themselves:Just because these two actions "resolve instantly" and provide an effect for a duration, does not mean that this is how all actions work.  Each action is defined separately.  When taking a particular action, all we need to do is look at the text for that specific action, because it defines how the action works.  If we are taking action A, then the fact action B behaves differently is irrelevant, as B is a specific rule that applies to the B action alone.Okay, so I'm standing next to Jim, and have some of my movement left as well as my action, per the general rules I listed above.  I decide I want to take the Attack action.  I have the Extra Attack class feature that says:and the Attack action itself says:Making an Attack lists 3 steps: 1) Choose a target.  2) Determine modifiers.  3) Resolve the attack.  I choose Jim as the target of my attack, determine the modifiers, and then make the first attack roll.  This first attack must happen as a discrete step, because Bob is standing next to Jim and thus might want to take his Sentinel attack against me.  Once the first attack is resolved, we move onto the next attack, and work through the same 3 steps to resolve that attack.In previous editions, movement and actions were completely separate.  That is, as soon as you stopped moving, you were done and couldn't move again until your next turn.  5E changed that by allowing you to move before and after your action, and it also added another specific rule, which is to allow movement between weapon attacks:This is not a general "all actions are divisible" rule, this is a specific rule that allows for exactly one thing to happen: movement between weapon attacks.  It doesn't specify which action must provide the weapon attacks.  It does explicitly says weapon attacks, which means it does not apply to spells like Eldritch Blast or Scorching Ray.So, let's say I've made one attack against Jim, but then decide that maybe it'd be better to attack his wizard friend Sally.  As I just described, there's a rule that lets me use some of my movement in between weapon attacks, so I move over next to Sally.  This must be resolved as a discrete element, because Bob might use his reaction to make an opportunity attack against me and cast Banishment.  Assuming he either does not do that or I make my saving throw, I'm now standing in melee range of Sally and can make an attack against her, using the standard 3-step rule.  Again, this attack must be resolved as a discrete step, because Bob might have a Ready action trigger of "if someone attacks Sally".My 2nd attack is complete, which also means my action is complete.  I'm now standing next to Sally, but have some movement left.  The general rule says I can move before and after my action, so I'm free to move away from Sally if I want to.  I do that, which of course means she can attempt an opportunity attack against me.  Bob might also have a reaction waiting to go, with a trigger of "if someone moves away from Sally", which means that movement must be a discrete element and resolved before I can do anything else.Reactions demand that my turn be made up of discrete elements, and that those discrete elements be played and resolved in order.  The order matters, because each individual element might trigger a reaction, which can drastically alter the state of the game.  To use our previous example, Bob might be waiting to cast Banishment on me depending on exactly what I do on my turn, and the only way this works is that each element of my turn is played one at a time.  Once an element has been resolved, we move onto the next one, and the state of the game advances (i.e. positioning, what's on my menu of things I can do next, and so on).Let's imagine I have the Shield Master feat.  Here are the specific rules that apply:We've already determined that there are well-defined periods of time on your turn that are "before your action" and "after your action", based on the movement rules.  So, when can I use the Shield Master bonus action on the turn I described above?1) At the start of my turn, my menu of available options is "move, action".  I have not taken the Attack action, so I do not have access to the bonus action shove yet.2) I use some of my movement, and my menu of available options is still "move, action" because I have movement left.3) I take the Attack action and make a weapon attack against Jim, and my menu becomes "move, weapon attack" because there's an explicit rule that lets me move between weapon attacks, and the Extra Attack feature grants me a second attack when I take the Attack action.4) I move over to Sally, and my menu is still "move, weapon attack" because I have movement left.5) I make my second weapon attack against Sally, and my menu becomes "move, Shield Master shove".  This is the point where the condition "take the Attack action" is true and I can actually do something about it.  Again, there's an exception to the rules that says I can move between weapon attacks, which means this is the only thing I can do between weapon attacks.6) Let's say I do actually shove Sally prone before moving away, now her OA has disadvantage.  My menu becomes "move" because I have used my action and the bonus action I was granted by the Attack action.7) I move away, my menu becomes empty because I have used all of my available options.  My turn ends.Again, my turn is constructed of elements that are explicitly allowed by rules in the PHB.  At no point do I have to guess or infer something, I'm using the actual words in the PHB.  These elements must be played and resolved in order, because Bob might be waiting to cast Banishment at any stage of my turn.  This is why the duration of the Attack action is completely irrelevant to how the attacks get resolved, and why the duration of an action has no relevance in general (which is why the PHB does not talk about it).  It's also why the condition in the Shield Master bonus action is a timing requirement.  The condition must be true before I can use the bonus action, because at any stage in my turn I might trigger Bob's reaction and he ends my turn.  The game cannot be in an inconsistent state where I've used a bonus action that is granted by an action, and never actually take that action on my turn.  At no point does the PHB specify that the Attack action is separate from the attacks it grants, if we just do what it says in that rule, we take the Attack action by making an attack.  Extra Attack grants us a second attack, which gets added to our menu of available options after the first attack has been made.  There is an explicit rule that lets us move between weapon attacks, so if we have movement left it's also on our menu of options.  Once all the attacks have been made, the Attack action has been taken, and anything that is triggered by that action now comes into play.Why can't you shove between attacks?  The Shield Master feat is triggered by the Attack action, not by making a weapon attack.  The PHB says the Attack action with Extra Attack is 2 weapon attacks, and the PHB says you can move between weapon attacks.  That's all you're allowed to do.  Attack and move.  Once you've made those 2 attacks, the action is done.  Once the action is done, the bonus action's condition is true, and thus the bonus action becomes available for use until the end of your turn.To summarize: The PHB says what you can do on your turn, starting with movement and an action.  Your turn must be a series of discrete elements, because those elements might trigger a reaction.  That reaction might have to occur after the triggering element is finished, but before the next one starts.  If there is a conditional element, the condition therefore must be true before it can be played, because a reaction may prevent you from actually performing the condition in the future as you originally intended.  Specific rules are not general rules, just because one action works in a particular way does not mean every action must also work in exactly the same way.I'm sure I haven't convinced anyone of anything, but I really think it's worth actually going back and reading the words that are in the book.  Someone complained that the rules are full of inconsistencies, but I believe the rules are generally very consistent if you simply do what the words say and not add extra things on top of that.</blockquote>

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