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<blockquote data-quote="Asgorath" data-source="post: 7577450" data-attributes="member: 6921966"><p>What "rules that are not rules" did I quote in my post? My starting assumption was simple: in order for you to be able to do something in combat, there must be a rule that says you can do that thing. If we can't agree on that, then there isn't much point in continuing this debate really.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The lack of an explicit rule that says you can take a bonus action with a timing requirement during the action that triggers it means you cannot do that. Otherwise, what's the point of the rules? Please see my foundational assumption: there must be a rule that says you can do something, or else you cannot do it. We do not need rules describing all the things you cannot do, the simple lack of a rule allowing it is all that is needed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Surely, the text of the general rule is what reveals how those rules work? Why are you adding things on top of what the rule says? Just do what the rule says, nothing more, nothing less.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>- There's a rule that says the Attack action means making a weapon attack.</p><p>- There's a rule that says Extra Attack means the Attack action gives you 2 (or more) attacks.</p><p>- There's a rule that says you can move between weapon attacks.</p><p></p><p>Where's the rule that says you can inject a bonus action that is triggered from the Attack action in between weapon attacks? The lack of explicit permission to do that means you cannot do that. I listed out the order of discrete operations for an Attack action with multiple attacks and movement, and the point at which the rules allow you to perform the bonus action shove. Again, the rule says you can move between attacks. That's the only thing you can do in between attacks of the attack action.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The explicit rule that allows for movement between attacks does result in the Attack action as a whole being split into several discrete elements, as I've explained many times in this thread already. However, that rule is the only rule that says you can do something between the attacks in the Attack action. The rules need to give you permission to do something, or else you can't do it. Once you've completed your attacks, the Attack action is over, and the available choices of things you can do on your turn becomes:</p><p></p><p>1) Move (assuming you have movement left).</p><p>2) Shield Master bonus action shove.</p><p></p><p>That is, the Attack action must be complete for the game state to be logically consistent when you perform the bonus action shove, because your turn could be interrupted and ended at any point in time before that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Please quote the rule(s) that allow you to insert a bonus action that is triggered by the Attack action in between attacks of that action, then. I've been very clear about the rules text I used for my example. I've seen no rules that talk about things coinciding or happening simultaneously, or that you can choose the order that individual elements are resolved (outside of the order that you play them, per my example). Can you just quote the specific PHB text that you're talking about? If it's as clear as you suggest, then you should be able to just list the specific rule that talks about simultaneous events or actions/bonus actions and deciding which order to resolve them in.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Asgorath, post: 7577450, member: 6921966"] What "rules that are not rules" did I quote in my post? My starting assumption was simple: in order for you to be able to do something in combat, there must be a rule that says you can do that thing. If we can't agree on that, then there isn't much point in continuing this debate really. The lack of an explicit rule that says you can take a bonus action with a timing requirement during the action that triggers it means you cannot do that. Otherwise, what's the point of the rules? Please see my foundational assumption: there must be a rule that says you can do something, or else you cannot do it. We do not need rules describing all the things you cannot do, the simple lack of a rule allowing it is all that is needed. Surely, the text of the general rule is what reveals how those rules work? Why are you adding things on top of what the rule says? Just do what the rule says, nothing more, nothing less. - There's a rule that says the Attack action means making a weapon attack. - There's a rule that says Extra Attack means the Attack action gives you 2 (or more) attacks. - There's a rule that says you can move between weapon attacks. Where's the rule that says you can inject a bonus action that is triggered from the Attack action in between weapon attacks? The lack of explicit permission to do that means you cannot do that. I listed out the order of discrete operations for an Attack action with multiple attacks and movement, and the point at which the rules allow you to perform the bonus action shove. Again, the rule says you can move between attacks. That's the only thing you can do in between attacks of the attack action. The explicit rule that allows for movement between attacks does result in the Attack action as a whole being split into several discrete elements, as I've explained many times in this thread already. However, that rule is the only rule that says you can do something between the attacks in the Attack action. The rules need to give you permission to do something, or else you can't do it. Once you've completed your attacks, the Attack action is over, and the available choices of things you can do on your turn becomes: 1) Move (assuming you have movement left). 2) Shield Master bonus action shove. That is, the Attack action must be complete for the game state to be logically consistent when you perform the bonus action shove, because your turn could be interrupted and ended at any point in time before that. Please quote the rule(s) that allow you to insert a bonus action that is triggered by the Attack action in between attacks of that action, then. I've been very clear about the rules text I used for my example. I've seen no rules that talk about things coinciding or happening simultaneously, or that you can choose the order that individual elements are resolved (outside of the order that you play them, per my example). Can you just quote the specific PHB text that you're talking about? If it's as clear as you suggest, then you should be able to just list the specific rule that talks about simultaneous events or actions/bonus actions and deciding which order to resolve them in. [/QUOTE]
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