Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Sage Advice Compendium Update 1/30/2019
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 7577730" data-attributes="member: 6787503"><p>But that "paradox" is of your own creation and is easily solved! Don't allocate a bonus action to the shove-attempt until the condition for it has been met. See how easy that is?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not doing that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, it isn't. That's precisely what I'm recommending you not do to avoid creating the paradox you keep creating.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is a very odd view of the rules which keeps coming up in this conversation. It's the idea that my character needs explicit permission from the rule-books to do something entirely mundane that anyone in the real world can do. In the real world, if I want to shove someone, I don't need to "use an action" to do so. I can just extend my arm, or whatever, and apply the physical force that I wish to. That's all that's required of my action-declaration in the game as well. All I need to express at the table is that my character shoves a creature within 5 feet, and that my character's goal is to push the creature back or to knock it prone. It isn't an action or a bonus action that causes my character to shove a creature. It's my action-declaration that causes it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, it doesn't. He also reversed his ruling on War Magic. I think the reason for his reversal should be taken at face-value: he decided that the conditions for both the War Magic and Shield Master bonus actions (among others) do indeed constitute a timing specification. I'll repeat that he has gone on record that the decisions made in development about bonus action timing weren't made for balance reasons, but rather to keep the game moving.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But I could have shoved a creature anyway. Therefore, gaining the ability to shove a creature is of no additional benefit.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't see how this is progress. I've never held or expressed any other opinion. Have we overcome some assumption you were making about me?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I won't agree to that. Here's the full tweet of the ruling dated July 6, 2015: <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Does the “when” in the Eldritch Knight’s War Magic feature mean the bonus attack comes after you cast the cantrip, or can it come before?</strong> The intent is that the bonus attack can come before or after the cantrip.</p><p>This unequivocally establishes RAI for bonus action timing of "conditioned" bonus actions like the shield master shove, i.e. there is no specified timing. You may remember that the RAI of Shield Master was a contentious issue up-thread in my conversation with [MENTION=6921966]Asgorath[/MENTION], and I'm somewhat surprised they haven't conceded the point in light of this overwhelming evidence.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I said, "<em>intended</em> lack of a timing specification." The timing specification that Jeremy Crawford has added to the game since he revised the War Magic ruling in the 2017 Sage Advice Compendium is the unintended result of a hyper-literalistic reading of rules-text which failed to reliably convey its intended meaning to enough people. It's a terrible reason for a ruling, IMO. What they should have done instead is issue errata to make the text in question conform more closely to its intended meaning.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm sorry, but I'm not following what point you think indicates this. I'm pretty confident that I understand Crawford's reasoning, though. I just don't agree that his is the only valid interpretation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I find it odd how much you conflate the official ruling with the rules (RAW). They aren't the same thing, and not following Crawford's ruling doesn't require a house-rule, which I have nothing against, but in this case it isn't necessary.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No worries!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hriston, post: 7577730, member: 6787503"] But that "paradox" is of your own creation and is easily solved! Don't allocate a bonus action to the shove-attempt until the condition for it has been met. See how easy that is? Why? I'm not doing that. No, it isn't. That's precisely what I'm recommending you not do to avoid creating the paradox you keep creating. This is a very odd view of the rules which keeps coming up in this conversation. It's the idea that my character needs explicit permission from the rule-books to do something entirely mundane that anyone in the real world can do. In the real world, if I want to shove someone, I don't need to "use an action" to do so. I can just extend my arm, or whatever, and apply the physical force that I wish to. That's all that's required of my action-declaration in the game as well. All I need to express at the table is that my character shoves a creature within 5 feet, and that my character's goal is to push the creature back or to knock it prone. It isn't an action or a bonus action that causes my character to shove a creature. It's my action-declaration that causes it. No, it doesn't. He also reversed his ruling on War Magic. I think the reason for his reversal should be taken at face-value: he decided that the conditions for both the War Magic and Shield Master bonus actions (among others) do indeed constitute a timing specification. I'll repeat that he has gone on record that the decisions made in development about bonus action timing weren't made for balance reasons, but rather to keep the game moving. But I could have shoved a creature anyway. Therefore, gaining the ability to shove a creature is of no additional benefit. I don't see how this is progress. I've never held or expressed any other opinion. Have we overcome some assumption you were making about me? No, I won't agree to that. Here's the full tweet of the ruling dated July 6, 2015: [INDENT][B]Does the “when” in the Eldritch Knight’s War Magic feature mean the bonus attack comes after you cast the cantrip, or can it come before?[/B] The intent is that the bonus attack can come before or after the cantrip.[/INDENT] This unequivocally establishes RAI for bonus action timing of "conditioned" bonus actions like the shield master shove, i.e. there is no specified timing. You may remember that the RAI of Shield Master was a contentious issue up-thread in my conversation with [MENTION=6921966]Asgorath[/MENTION], and I'm somewhat surprised they haven't conceded the point in light of this overwhelming evidence. I said, "[I]intended[/I] lack of a timing specification." The timing specification that Jeremy Crawford has added to the game since he revised the War Magic ruling in the 2017 Sage Advice Compendium is the unintended result of a hyper-literalistic reading of rules-text which failed to reliably convey its intended meaning to enough people. It's a terrible reason for a ruling, IMO. What they should have done instead is issue errata to make the text in question conform more closely to its intended meaning. I'm sorry, but I'm not following what point you think indicates this. I'm pretty confident that I understand Crawford's reasoning, though. I just don't agree that his is the only valid interpretation. I find it odd how much you conflate the official ruling with the rules (RAW). They aren't the same thing, and not following Crawford's ruling doesn't require a house-rule, which I have nothing against, but in this case it isn't necessary. No worries! [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Sage Advice Compendium Update 1/30/2019
Top