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Message: <blockquote data-quote="LostSoul" data-source="post: 5777327" data-attributes="member: 386">Yep, that reply clarifies things for me!  Thanks.I should say that I'm not really talking about 4E, I'm talking about my game which has been hacked from the 4E base.  I use the mechanics and "game economy" in a different way than I think is suggested in the books.So what I'm talking about - the procedures used to determine mechanical values - isn't exactly 4E but instead my game.  I hope that's not too frustrating for you, since what "my game" means is always changing; for example, this thread is making me think of writing up a different method of creating monster or NPC stats.  I understand that could be annoying, and if so, let me know and I'll try to clarify.I used to play a lot of Star Wars d6 in the '90s.  It was my main game.  In that game characters were rated by a number of dice in a skill - Blaster 5D or Con 4D.  In one of the GM books it told you what these "D" figures meant in terms of the narrative.[sblock]Let's see how much I can remember:1D - Aunt May (actually I think that's from the old Marvel game!)2D - Normal untrained human3D - Some training, experience, or high natural ability4D - Professional level or great natural ability5D - Skilled professional or superhuman natural ability6D - The best in a city (100k)7D - The best on a continent (10M)8D - The best on a world (1B)9D - The best in a system10D - The best in a sector11D - The best in a region12D - The best in the galaxyI think that's pretty close![/sblock]When I ran the game I could make up stats on the fly because I had memorized that table.  What level of blaster skill should the bounty hunter have?  Well, if he's a normal bounty hunter, 4D.  If he's a good one, 5D.  If he's a kick-ass one, 6D.I use Level in my game in the same way.  What level is that sell-sword?  Just started or little experience?  1-3.  Veteran with a lot of experience?  4-6.  Highly skilled elite (not "Elite!")?  7-9.  The highest level a normal human can reach?  10.  Getting above that is difficult.  (PCs have to set a goal and reach it; a swordsman who wants to perfect his craft has to prove it somehow and spend thousands of GP training.)So in my game at least, level describes a narrative, or game world, quality.  I use the same method to determine other features of the game world, like how dangerous (in the sense that the Rockies aren't the Himalayas) those peaks are, how thick a forest is, etc.  I add skill into the equation.  Which makes sense to me; a more highly-skilled combatant is going to be harder to hit.  For beasts, I imagine that, instead of skill, level represents size and ferocity.Two to three points is what happens in the Heroic Tier because the numbers are smaller.Let's assume an archer with 16 DEX wearing leather vs. one wearing plate.  Let's also assume he's just finished basic training and is a level 1 standard monster.  (I do have rules that will advance minions to standard monsters through training.  It takes about a month, I think.)  The archer will have 15 AC in leather vs. 18 AC in plate.  Three points difference.It's important to me to make this distinction, too.  This came up in a game where the PCs had access to a lot of looted armour; they wanted to upgrade the equipment of NPC allies they had protecting their town.  Giving that guy who was wearing chain mail a suit of scale will increase his AC by 1 point.No problem!  I am finding this dialogue very rewarding.  I would XP you but I can't at the moment.What I mean is that, if the guy is 1st level, he shouldn't have access to plate armour.  He should be wearing something like leather or hide.So what I do is decide on his skill level in the game world; work out a level from that; use a table to determine appropriate equipment for a character of his level; and from that I'll get an AC value.(Well, actually I don't do that, but I should in the future.  I'm trying to put together a table that will allow me to do this.)Since I run what I call a "post-apocalyptic science-fantasy western," good armour and organizations which make it are not at all common.  However, I made rules for determining how Settlements (villages and towns) grow in response to the PC's actions.  (Basically, spend GP in a town and at the end of the month it will gain a Level - and Level, in this case, represents the size of the town.)  It's possible that the PCs will gather a large "warband" and start outfitting them in high-quality armour.  In that case I'd adjust their stats to reflect the upgrade in equipment.  I do the same when I generate a magic item for an NPC.(NPCs also do this.  In a previous version of the rules for NPC organizations I had one warlord starting up an arms industry to outfit his troops.  That version was too cumbersome to use, though.)No.  4E changes what AC means in a fundamental way.  It's a combination of skill and (speed + protection or (protection).  I guess that makes more sense to me.  I have a player in my group who does the medieval combat recreation thing.  If you gave us both plate and a sword, I'd have a much harder time hitting him.  Or a buff coat and a sword.Now if you took away his sword... but my system applies modifiers to deal with that.  (I'd get modifiers to AC and to hit.)I agree with you here.  I haven't written anything in my hack about creating monsters, but I'd say that the numbers are a suggestion; if you want to change them, go ahead.Now this does get into the other differences that we have that you brought up in your reply to my first post in the thread - reward systems and player information in making decisions.  In my game, a guy with a Will that sucks is going to be a push-over, because I use the Will defence to determine things like Morale and resistance to social pressure.  Does that mean he's worth less XP?  Hmmm... probably not.  I don't have a problem with an NPC with a weak spot.Cool, I like it.  My assumption was - based on the fact that he's a demon lord - that his naked flesh was a resilient as starmetal.  If not, that'd be like the case of the Epic Human guy I mentioned; his AC is going to be derived from DEX and skill alone.  So that's around 23 + DEX, whatever that is.  Now that makes me wonder why his Ref is so high.  Without magic it'd be the same value.  (Using a 3.5 balor as a template, DEX is 25, so his Ref would be 30.)  I don't think the way I use 4E works well for Epic Tier!(edit: Or 23 + INT, I guess.)Yeah, you know what, I think I did just that!  I think that's why I have found this conversation so helpful; it gives me ideas that will keep me from doing that in the future.  I can use your viewpoint to help me write up new procedures to make NPCs or monsters.Hopefully that will allow the players to take a look at an NPC and gauge its level, which is the main point to all of this stuff!  (For me; I recognize that's a fundamental difference we have, and one that I wanted to get to.  I've found the conversation you're having with Balesir interesting, but I want to talk about this first.)It determines the strength of the magic, and therefore how easily it can overwhelm someone's defences.  In 3E it would be like the spell level or HD, which is used to determine saving throws.  That level 21 item would have a supernatural ability (or maybe spell-like?  I'm not sure what the difference is), so the Will Save DC would be 10 + 1/2 HD + the item's CHA mod.</blockquote>

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