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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5778876" data-attributes="member: 957">Well, on the 3E side the answer is &quot;O course you have to justify things.&quot;&nbsp; That is the point.&nbsp; On the 4E side of things you are hand waving and not addressing the issue.If you want to say that you can just slap a -15 penalty on a demon lords will save and call it done then, of course, I fully agree with you.But you are grinding against of the grain of the way the system is designed when you do that.&nbsp; And if you do it once, no big deal. But I have issues with that demon lord across the board.&nbsp; The will save is just a simple &quot;for example&quot;.&nbsp; I'm going to want every stat across the board to fit the narrative and NONE of them to be tied to &quot;the math&quot;.&nbsp; 4E has received a ton of praise for &quot;the math works&quot; and every single stat in that block is based on &quot;the math&quot; with the fact that it is a demon lord just painted on top.So if you want to fix the will save and then also fix everything else to be what it &quot;should&quot; be, then you are going to have to second guess EVERY single stat and change 80% of them.&nbsp; At THAT point you are not playing 4E any longer.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 5778876, member: 957"] Well, on the 3E side the answer is "O course you have to justify things." That is the point. On the 4E side of things you are hand waving and not addressing the issue. If you want to say that you can just slap a -15 penalty on a demon lords will save and call it done then, of course, I fully agree with you. But you are grinding against of the grain of the way the system is designed when you do that. And if you do it once, no big deal. But I have issues with that demon lord across the board. The will save is just a simple "for example". I'm going to want every stat across the board to fit the narrative and NONE of them to be tied to "the math". 4E has received a ton of praise for "the math works" and every single stat in that block is based on "the math" with the fact that it is a demon lord just painted on top. So if you want to fix the will save and then also fix everything else to be what it "should" be, then you are going to have to second guess EVERY single stat and change 80% of them. At THAT point you are not playing 4E any longer. [/QUOTE]

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