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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9643750" data-attributes="member: 6790260">No, it doesn't, mostly because this whole &quot;dm-player&quot; you keep talking about doesn't exist, and is instead the fictional strawman you built to attack a style you have explicitly said you don't like, don't understand, don't want to understand, and seem particularly dedicated to taking down.It has nothing to do with &quot;sandbox&quot; regardless.Because it's a crappy, reductive argument.A sandbox game is one where, to some extent, the party has no goals fixed and required by the DM. A game that is relatively quite light on sandbox-y characteristics would be, for example, one where there is a linear plot, but at every &quot;stop&quot; along the way, there's a lot of freedom and such freedom can have long-term consequences. One that is relatively heavy on sandbox-y characteristics just has a map with stuff the GM knows is on it, and the players entirely decide what to look into, what they care about, etc.Since I know you both like to invent your own &quot;word-salad&quot; terms and love throwing around that phrase to dismiss arguments, a relatively simple list of sandbox-y characteristics would include (but isn't limited to):<ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">No required &quot;plot&quot;/&quot;events&quot;, just stuff that happens as the world turns.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">PCs can do things that might be &quot;disruptive&quot; in a linear/railroad game, like killing authority figures or leaving town before the monster attack etc.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">The players themselves decide what things matter to them, and may change their minds about this</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">The DM primarily acts as &quot;referee&quot; (in the old-school game sense), rather than as an author or guide</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Players are responsible for seeking out information, leads, and points of interest--the DM won't throw hooks/prompts at them</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Atypical/idiosyncratic goals, like &quot;set up a potion shop&quot; or &quot;sail around the world&quot; etc., are common or even encouraged</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wandering monsters, infestations, and various other threats that move, grow, or change over time</li>
</ul>There are probably several more I'm not thinking of (I am finally becoming sleepy after taking meds), but these are a few typical characteristics.And I would like to note here: if you read this and think &quot;well this is just typical D&amp;D&quot;, I recommend considering whether the problem is that this list is wrong...or whether it might, possibly, be the case that your definition of both &quot;sandbox&quot; and &quot;typical D&amp;D&quot; maybe isn't quite correct.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9643750, member: 6790260"] No, it doesn't, mostly because this whole "dm-player" you keep talking about doesn't exist, and is instead the fictional strawman you built to attack a style you have explicitly said you don't like, don't understand, don't [I]want[/I] to understand, and seem particularly dedicated to taking down. It has nothing to do with "sandbox" regardless. Because it's a crappy, reductive argument. A sandbox game is one where, to some extent, the party has no goals fixed and required by the DM. A game that is relatively quite light on sandbox-y characteristics would be, for example, one where there [I]is[/I] a linear plot, but at every "stop" along the way, there's a lot of freedom and such freedom can have long-term consequences. One that is relatively heavy on sandbox-y characteristics just has a map with stuff the GM knows is on it, and the players entirely decide what to look into, what they care about, etc. Since I know you both like to invent your own "word-salad" terms and love throwing around that phrase to dismiss arguments, a relatively simple list of sandbox-y characteristics would include (but isn't limited to): [LIST] [*]No [I]required[/I] "plot"/"events", just stuff that happens as the world turns. [*]PCs can do things that might be "disruptive" in a linear/railroad game, like killing authority figures or leaving town before the monster attack etc. [*]The players themselves decide what things matter to them, and may change their minds about this [*]The DM primarily acts as "referee" (in the old-school game sense), rather than as an author or guide [*]Players are responsible for seeking out information, leads, and points of interest--the DM won't throw hooks/prompts at them [*]Atypical/idiosyncratic goals, like "set up a potion shop" or "sail around the world" etc., are common or even encouraged [*]Wandering monsters, infestations, and various other threats that move, grow, or change over time [/LIST] There are probably several more I'm not thinking of (I am finally becoming sleepy after taking meds), but these are a few typical characteristics. And I would like to note here: if you read this and think "well this is just typical D&D", I recommend considering whether the problem is that this list is wrong...or whether it might, possibly, be the case that your definition of both "sandbox" and "typical D&D" [I]maybe[/I] isn't quite correct. [/QUOTE]

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