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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5409049" data-attributes="member: 4937">I think that that is accurate enough for most purposes.  But I'd be inclined though to believe that railroading is railroading even if the player doesn't notice it or object to it.  Indeed, I think railroading is railroading even when a player consents to get on the train.  Railroading is a technique, or set of techniques, designed to let the DM take control over the narrative away from the players.  Just because the PC's don't realize that they've lost narrative authority, or because the players are a willing audience for the DMs storytelling doesn't mean that it isn't railroading.  It just means that the DM has gotten away with it.  It's important to note that for many tables, it's assumed and prefered that the DM does take control over the narrative and if the DM fails to do so the players will see this as failure on his part.  So, IMO, every DM needs to be able to drive a train as well as he builds a sandbox, and vica versa.I think that it would go too far to say that any wall constitutes railroading.  A classic megadungeon can constitute a kind of sandbox, albiet one with a somewhat more limited setting, and walls in and of themselves can be simple artifacts of simulation with no explicit narrative purpose.  Without narrative purpose, a wall can't be used to hijack and control the narative and thus can't be used to railroad.But I have very much seen players object to the placement of a wall, and the placement of a wall is definately one of the primary techniques of railroading.  If a DM places walls to create a Tiny World, chances are he's railroading.  Moving walls and one way doors are almost always - outside of Gygaxian megadungeons - signs of railroading.The easist way I can think of to demonstrate this is the text of DL1: Dragons of Despair, which is one of the most famous railroads in D&D, and it heavily relies on Tiny World and Endurium Walls to control the narrative while giving the semblence of an outdoor environment.   If you were to draw a flow chart of the outdoor map that accompanies the module you'd find that the result map looked nothing like an outdoor map.  The map is outlined with walls in the form of impassable mountains.  Passes out are blocked by unblinking, undecievable, unsleeping gaurds.  The map you drew that reflected the real map would be covered with one way doors, and moving walls in the form of invincible dragon armies close in on the characters from every side.   A great many EnWorlder's have expressed displeasure with the module walls, particularly the ones that act like walls or involve walls where we would not expect them to be.I've said before that with a skilled DM its usually impossible to tell if you are being railroaded until you try to get off.   Of course, a truly skilled DM who was railroading you in the first place will probably let you off and then immediately put you on a second railroad.   Most players though are pretty content to ride the rails.  Some players are self-aware enough to know that their ideal game involves a lot of railroading, and would be disappointed if easily accessible train stations aren't provided for their enjoyment.  Railroading only gets to be a problem when the players want to get off and do everything to signal that they want a change of narrative, and the DM won't allow it.   That's when the players start yelling about 'Railroad'.It's an issue if it doesn't come up only I think to the extent that it is better for a DM to be aware of what he is doing and conscious of why he is doing it and what his alternatives are so that he has some real control over his game and his style.   That way, when a problem comes up at the table whether the players object that they are on a railroad or object that they are in a rowboat, it won't be a matter of, "My way is the only way.", because the DM has more than one tool in his toolset.</blockquote>

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