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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5409272" data-attributes="member: 4937">You are neglecting the fact that a player could be ok with a GM usurping narrative authority over the character in some cases.&nbsp;&nbsp; And you are equally neglecting that the cases where the player is ok with GM usurpation will vary from player to player.&nbsp; That phrase, &quot;should be in control of&quot;, is hiding a subjective claim.&nbsp; Stop there.&nbsp; Don't confuse plot with a railroad.&nbsp; Plot in the literary sense isn't an essential aspect of a railroad.&nbsp;&nbsp; In another thread I tried to talk concretely about what a railroad was and how it worked.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's not a question of choosing or not choosing to go along with the plot.&nbsp; If I deploy Endurium Walls or build a Tiny World or use Schrödinger's Map or if I employ heavy handed Hand Waving, and you consent to play along with me because you enjoy the cut scene and don't mind the temporary loss of control over your character, the fact that you individually consented to it without objection (either actively or passively because you didn't notice what I did) doesn't mean I didn't use a railroad.&nbsp;&nbsp; With skilled railroading, what choices you make as a player are irrelevant.&nbsp;&nbsp; With a well made railroad, it becomes difficult or impossible to get off by exercising character choice and instead you can only object at the metagame level.The need to identify a railroad objectively without defining it as a subjective experience is essential to allowing a DM to recognize when they are railroading.&nbsp; Otherwise, a DM is going to be tempted to see the problem as lying wholly with the players for refusing to play along, especially if in the past they or another group didn't object to the same technique.While I agree, that doesn't prove your point.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5409272, member: 4937"] You are neglecting the fact that a player could be ok with a GM usurping narrative authority over the character in some cases. And you are equally neglecting that the cases where the player is ok with GM usurpation will vary from player to player. That phrase, "should be in control of", is hiding a subjective claim. Stop there. Don't confuse plot with a railroad. Plot in the literary sense isn't an essential aspect of a railroad. In another thread I tried to talk concretely about what a railroad was and how it worked. It's not a question of choosing or not choosing to go along with the plot. If I deploy Endurium Walls or build a Tiny World or use Schrödinger's Map or if I employ heavy handed Hand Waving, and you consent to play along with me because you enjoy the cut scene and don't mind the temporary loss of control over your character, the fact that you individually consented to it without objection (either actively or passively because you didn't notice what I did) doesn't mean I didn't use a railroad. With skilled railroading, what choices you make as a player are irrelevant. With a well made railroad, it becomes difficult or impossible to get off by exercising character choice and instead you can only object at the metagame level. The need to identify a railroad objectively without defining it as a subjective experience is essential to allowing a DM to recognize when they are railroading. Otherwise, a DM is going to be tempted to see the problem as lying wholly with the players for refusing to play along, especially if in the past they or another group didn't object to the same technique. While I agree, that doesn't prove your point. [/QUOTE]

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