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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 5124290" data-attributes="member: 177">Read what you yourself just quoted.  Did the words "cannot describe" appear?  No.  I never said it cannot be done! I put a limit on how precisely it can be done.  I said it can be done vaguely, in broad strokes."He's a tall man, with a beard and glasses," is a perfectly accurate description of a person, but it isn't very detailed.  It is vague.  Yes.  I agree with that observation.  I was just showing how having lots of static stuff was within the "sandbox" classification.I think you two are talking a bit past each other.  But I don't actually agree with the idea that the existence of plot hooks means that plot exists.I am pretty sure Hobo is talking about predetermined plot. Not just the hook, but the reeling in, netting, gutting of the plot fish, through the pan frying and serving up the meal.To me, plot hooks don't mean there is plot - they are just a tool for starting a plot.  Plot is what may happen if characters grab the plot hooks and follow them.  If they don't grab, or if they drop the hook right after taking a few steps, you never get a cohesive plot.Just to be clear, I'm taking my cue off of what constitutes plot from literature, where a "plot" is all the events in a story particularly rendered toward the achievement of some particular artistic or emotional effect or general theme.  There can be events in the story that are *not* part of the plot.Now, I'm a little more loose about it - I figure that if there's a cohesive storyline and events linked together with some decent cause and effect and repercussions and such, that the artistic and emotional points will likely fall out of the mix on their own.  So will some of the themes, though some will probably need to be implemented by the GM.For Hobo's plot - the basic series of events is, if not completely predetermined, then largely known in outline (even if the outline may change as the GM and players do neat stuff that wasn't in the original outline) before any of the action takes place.For your plot - I would say it doesn't exist yet.  It is plot in potentia - if the PCs wander without aims, then no coherent storyline, emotional points, themes, or the like are apt to become apparent as things go on.  Which is not to say the game wouldn't be fun without what I'm calling plot.</blockquote>

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