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<blockquote data-quote="Transformer" data-source="post: 5126220" data-attributes="member: 70008">Melan,Hi Melan,Thinking about your concept of 'sandbox' games vs. Hobo's, it does seem to me that's you're talking about two different things. So I thought about your two different spectrums, so to speak--yours between a game driven by the GM's overall plan vs. a game driven by player choices, and his between a totally open field of exploration and a railroad--and I stuck those two axes on top of one another, and this is what I came up with:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; GM DRIVEN AND&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; NARROWED OPEN CAMPAIGN&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (GOOD 'TRADITIONAL' GAME)OPEN CAMPAIGN THAT STAYS&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; CLOSED CAMPAIGNOPEN AND NEVER REACTS&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (RAILROAD)(BAD 'SANDBOX' GAME)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; PLAYER DRIVEN AND&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; NARROWED OPEN CAMPAIGN&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (GOOD 'SANDBOX' GAME)On the right we have a railroad, a campaign in which everything that happens is prescribed by the GM and the player's can't ever make meaningful choices. The campaign does develop and change, but only according to the GM's plan.On the left we have the opposite, a campaign that is extremely open and allows the players to go anywhere on the map, but in which the world doesn't really change or react to the players' choices. The players can't really create their own story because the world doesn't react to them; they can't really pursue their goals or get invested in a particular place or NPC. The players can explore the world freely and make lots of big choices, but as the campaign world doesn't really develop or react or change, the choices are relatively meaningless. This is Hobo's idea of a true sandbox: a theoretical extreme that is not desirable and in which the players' choices are just as meaningless as in a railroad. This is also probably the tabletop equivalent of a sandbox computer RPG. It is a game in which your first quote above is reversed: the focus is the &quot;game world,&quot; not the &quot;campaign.&quot;On the top we have a good 'traditional' campaign. The DM is the one who ultimately drives the story, but he gives the players plenty of meaningful choices and perhaps works some of their personal character goals into the overall story. The game world is open at the start and in theory, but later and in practice it is narrowed when the GM focuses it on a particular location or plot.On the bottom we have your idea of a 'good sandbox,' Melan. Once again the game world is open at the start and in theory, and once again it is narrowed later and in pratice. But now it's the players who narrow it by focusing the campaign on a particular NPC or location using their characters' goals. Now it's the players who initiate the story, and it's the GM who does most of the reacting.Anyway, I thought I was terribly clever in coming up with that diamond-shaped two-axis thing. Do you think it has any meaning?EDIT: *sigh* How do I keep my formatting so I can make my pretty diamond-shaped figure?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Transformer, post: 5126220, member: 70008"] Melan, Hi Melan, Thinking about your concept of 'sandbox' games vs. Hobo's, it does seem to me that's you're talking about two different things. So I thought about your two different spectrums, so to speak--yours between a game driven by the GM's overall plan vs. a game driven by player choices, and his between a totally open field of exploration and a railroad--and I stuck those two axes on top of one another, and this is what I came up with: GM DRIVEN AND NARROWED OPEN CAMPAIGN (GOOD 'TRADITIONAL' GAME) OPEN CAMPAIGN THAT STAYS CLOSED CAMPAIGN OPEN AND NEVER REACTS (RAILROAD) (BAD 'SANDBOX' GAME) PLAYER DRIVEN AND NARROWED OPEN CAMPAIGN (GOOD 'SANDBOX' GAME) On the right we have a railroad, a campaign in which everything that happens is prescribed by the GM and the player's can't ever make meaningful choices. The campaign does develop and change, but only according to the GM's plan. On the left we have the opposite, a campaign that is extremely open and allows the players to go anywhere on the map, but in which the world doesn't really change or react to the players' choices. The players can't really create their own story because the world doesn't react to them; they can't really pursue their goals or get invested in a particular place or NPC. The players can explore the world freely and make lots of big choices, but as the campaign world doesn't really develop or react or change, the choices are relatively meaningless. This is Hobo's idea of a true sandbox: a theoretical extreme that is not desirable and in which the players' choices are just as meaningless as in a railroad. This is also probably the tabletop equivalent of a sandbox computer RPG. It is a game in which your first quote above is reversed: the focus is the "game world," not the "campaign." On the top we have a good 'traditional' campaign. The DM is the one who ultimately drives the story, but he gives the players plenty of meaningful choices and perhaps works some of their personal character goals into the overall story. The game world is open at the start and in theory, but later and in practice it is narrowed when the GM focuses it on a particular location or plot. On the bottom we have your idea of a 'good sandbox,' Melan. Once again the game world is open at the start and in theory, and once again it is narrowed later and in pratice. But now it's the players who narrow it by focusing the campaign on a particular NPC or location using their characters' goals. Now it's the players who initiate the story, and it's the GM who does most of the reacting. Anyway, I thought I was terribly clever in coming up with that diamond-shaped two-axis thing. Do you think it has any meaning? EDIT: *sigh* How do I keep my formatting so I can make my pretty diamond-shaped figure? [/QUOTE]

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