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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8259867" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>DMG page 137 does agree with me. And I'm not sure you can call 700 cp, 7,000 sp, 2.100 gp, 105 pp multiple gems/art objects and multiple magical items a "small" hoard. Sure, they aren't as big as they get at the next stage where you are going to be walking away with no less than 30,000 gp before items, or even the top tiers where you average 320,000 gp easily before items. </p><p></p><p>Also, not sure why you decided to reference "starting equipment" for talking about treasure hoards. Maybe because I mentioned starting with the money instead? But the whole reason I bring up hoards is because all of the issues having a lot of money could bring to the table... can happen whenever you have the money. It isn't like there are character creation specific uses for money that can't be done mid-game.</p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p>1) I didn't account resistance because that is easy. Divide by 2. </p><p></p><p>2) I see, so you assume that the scouts with longbows are standing within 60 ft in fireball position instead of... scattered about so that exact thing can't happen. Also, plenty of monsters don't have AOEs. And even if they die, what does that matter to the person who can just buy more bodies to make more attacks?</p><p></p><p>3) Because we had no AC, obviously some of them miss. That is how the game works. </p><p></p><p>4) Yes, because I was showing an optimal condition. You also realize that there is still an entire party of player characters, who are mid to high level, who might be able to set up things or employ tactics to make this happen. Again, this is basically just a money based "Skeleton Archers" argument. We don't need to rehash every aspect of that scenario. People are familiar with skeleton archers, and if they aren't any discussion of the necromancer and skeleton archers can inform them of the tactic, its plays and counter-plays. </p><p></p><p>5) All 60? OH, you didn't read the name of the statblock as a name. I said "Scout" for a reason. Monster Manual pg 349, the Scout is CR 1/2, makes 2 attacks with a longbow, +4 to hit and 1d8+2 damage. </p><p></p><p>And, again, yeah, damage resistance and missing is a thing. But, let us take something really scary like a CR 9 Bone Devil. They have about 145 hp, assuming they need a 15 or better to hit is a 30% hit rate, ignoring crits we have these archers dealing about 54 damage. </p><p></p><p>Then the players get to go. </p><p></p><p>But ignoring the players this bone devil can still only kill two of these guy's a turn, if it doesn't miss and if it can reach them. It isn't going to survive three rounds. </p><p></p><p>Again, this entire strategy gets argued ad nausem for Skeleton Archers. This is the same set-up (actually more powerful) and here is my point. Max, I'm stating my point right now. This is the point. -> ->Players don't typically hire 30 scouts to fight their battles for them anyways. <-<-</p><p></p><p>Even if it is effective, players don't do it... because they want to be the ones fighting the monsters. It isn't a lack of money, it is a lack of reasons to do it. Argue into the ground about the play and counterplay and the lack of this and the ability to use these tactics and at the end of the day, the entire point is that it never happens. Not because the players are too poor, clearly, but because it isn't fun for them to do so.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8259867, member: 6801228"] DMG page 137 does agree with me. And I'm not sure you can call 700 cp, 7,000 sp, 2.100 gp, 105 pp multiple gems/art objects and multiple magical items a "small" hoard. Sure, they aren't as big as they get at the next stage where you are going to be walking away with no less than 30,000 gp before items, or even the top tiers where you average 320,000 gp easily before items. Also, not sure why you decided to reference "starting equipment" for talking about treasure hoards. Maybe because I mentioned starting with the money instead? But the whole reason I bring up hoards is because all of the issues having a lot of money could bring to the table... can happen whenever you have the money. It isn't like there are character creation specific uses for money that can't be done mid-game. 1) I didn't account resistance because that is easy. Divide by 2. 2) I see, so you assume that the scouts with longbows are standing within 60 ft in fireball position instead of... scattered about so that exact thing can't happen. Also, plenty of monsters don't have AOEs. And even if they die, what does that matter to the person who can just buy more bodies to make more attacks? 3) Because we had no AC, obviously some of them miss. That is how the game works. 4) Yes, because I was showing an optimal condition. You also realize that there is still an entire party of player characters, who are mid to high level, who might be able to set up things or employ tactics to make this happen. Again, this is basically just a money based "Skeleton Archers" argument. We don't need to rehash every aspect of that scenario. People are familiar with skeleton archers, and if they aren't any discussion of the necromancer and skeleton archers can inform them of the tactic, its plays and counter-plays. 5) All 60? OH, you didn't read the name of the statblock as a name. I said "Scout" for a reason. Monster Manual pg 349, the Scout is CR 1/2, makes 2 attacks with a longbow, +4 to hit and 1d8+2 damage. And, again, yeah, damage resistance and missing is a thing. But, let us take something really scary like a CR 9 Bone Devil. They have about 145 hp, assuming they need a 15 or better to hit is a 30% hit rate, ignoring crits we have these archers dealing about 54 damage. Then the players get to go. But ignoring the players this bone devil can still only kill two of these guy's a turn, if it doesn't miss and if it can reach them. It isn't going to survive three rounds. Again, this entire strategy gets argued ad nausem for Skeleton Archers. This is the same set-up (actually more powerful) and here is my point. Max, I'm stating my point right now. This is the point. -> ->Players don't typically hire 30 scouts to fight their battles for them anyways. <-<- Even if it is effective, players don't do it... because they want to be the ones fighting the monsters. It isn't a lack of money, it is a lack of reasons to do it. Argue into the ground about the play and counterplay and the lack of this and the ability to use these tactics and at the end of the day, the entire point is that it never happens. Not because the players are too poor, clearly, but because it isn't fun for them to do so. [/QUOTE]
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